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Transcript of Hearing 2/8/2006
See also Transcripts of 1/11/2006 Hearing in Detroit. See aslo Audio/Commentary of 1/11/2006 Hearing in Detroit
1 STATE OF MICHIGAN
1 2 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
3 PAGE 4 Opening statement by Mr. Bernstein. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 Mr. Woodrow Stanley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 Ms. Kathilaine Butler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15 6 Mr. Eric Mays . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17 Ms. Sally Horton. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 7 Mr. Sherman Irvin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 Ms. Elizabeth Jordan. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28 8 Ms. Sherry Bell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31 Ms. Kim Peterson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .33 9 Ms. M. Heather Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .38 Mr. Willie Hill . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .53 10 Mr. Fred Anthony. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55 Mr. James Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .57 11 Mr. George Washington . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .60 Mr. Tendaji Ganges. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66 12 Mr. William Allen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .70 Mr. Antwan Edson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74 13 Ms. Kathryn Blake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .78, 92 Ms. Lorna Latham. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79 14 Ms. Arlene Sparks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81 Ms. Mary Stewart. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82 15 Ms. Mary Harshfield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82 Ms. Maryion Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .84 16 Ms. Susan Pugsley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86 Ms. Janis Mohammed. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .87 17 Mr. Ray Lord. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95 Mr. Mark Courts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .98 18 Ms. Deidre Belton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101 Ms. Catherine Frederick . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 105 19 Ms. Monica Smith. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 107 Ms. Karlisa Spearman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 112 20 Mr. Eric Glover . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 113 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2
1 E X H I B I T I N D E X
PAGE 2 3 Exhibit 1 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .52 (5 Affidavits from Heather Miller) 4 Exhibit 2 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92 (1 Affidavit from Janis Mohammed) 5 Exhibit 3 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104 (Yahoo map) 6 Exhibit 4 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104 (13 Color photos) 7 Exhibit 5 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104 (13 Affidavits from Deidre Belton) 8 Exhibit 6 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104 (42 Affidavits) 9 Exhibit 7 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 112 (5 Affidavits from Monica Smith) 10 Exhibit 8 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 116 (11 Affidavits from Wyntis Marshall) 11 Exhibit 9 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 116 (6 Affidavits, 3 photocopies from Rudolph Verdun) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3
1 Flint, Michigan
2 Wednesday, February 8, 2006 - 6:19 p.m. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: I want to welcome everybody here. 4 I'm going to call this special hearing of the Michigan 5 Civil Rights Commission to order. This is the second 6 hearing that we've conducted on this very important matter. 7 The first hearing, as many of you may know, some of you 8 were in attendance, was in Detroit about roughly three 9 weeks ago. Let me introduce myself. I'm an attorney from 10 Ann Arbor. I'm the chair of the Michigan Civil Rights 11 Commission. And I want to welcome everyone here, everyone 12 here to these extraordinarily important proceedings. 13 This hearing is about conduct, about allegations 14 of voter fraud by a group working to ban affirmative action 15 in the State of Michigan. These allegations involve very 16 specifically -- and this is important for anybody who will 17 be testifying this evening. These are allegations that 18 involve very specifically the conduct of circulators 19 working to obtain signatures necessary to put that 20 initiative on the ballot. And secondly, it's about our 21 commission being responsive to Michigan citizens. As 22 Director Parker stated a second ago, it's about listening 23 to these profoundly serious allegations. To ignore these 24 voices, very simply, would be to ignore the 25 responsibilities of this commission. Tonight we are simply Page 4
1 doing our job.
2 Let's be clear about what we're talking about 3 tonight. We're talking about the civil rights of Michigan 4 voters. And there is nothing more central, more sacred to 5 the mission of this commission than an individual's voting 6 rights. Today we live in a time of increasing distrust and 7 cynicism about issues of public interest. And I believe 8 very strongly that that debilitating paralyzing cynicism 9 comes less from the content of public policy, less from 10 what's in the laws than by the conduct of people who are 11 making the laws or who are attempting to influence public 12 policy. So that's why this is extraordinarily important 13 this evening. It's about much more than the activities of 14 a ballot circulator. 15 I believe we owe it to ourselves and to future 16 generations who will live with the impact of this decision, 17 whether or not we choose to keep or ban affirmative action, 18 to treat these issues and each other in a very honest, 19 fair, and responsible way. And so I'm going to conclude my 20 remarks. I'm going to ask the members of the commission to 21 introduce themselves. If they have anything they'd like to 22 say, they're welcome to do so at this time. And we'll just 23 start all the way on my far left with Commissioner Wesaw. 24 MR. WESAW: Good evening. Thank you all for 25 coming. Matt Wesaw, looking forward to hearing your Page 5
1 comments.
2 MR. SCOTT: Good evening. Kelvin Scott, 3 likewise. 4 MR. ABDRABBOH: Good evening. Mohammed 5 Abdrabboh, I'm an attorney from Dearborn. I'm glad to be 6 here. I look forward to hearing the comments. 7 MR. ROBINSON: Ron Robinson, Assistant Attorney 8 General, counsel to the Civil Rights Commission. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. I just want to go 10 over some important ground rules before we begin calling 11 witnesses. Three important housekeeping items; number one, 12 this is a hearing that is specific to the issues that we 13 just talked about, specific to the allegations of voter 14 fraud by the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative. We are not 15 addressing any other matters that the Civil Rights 16 Commission is addressing or that the department is 17 addressing. 18 There are representatives from the department 19 throughout the room. If any of our department 20 representatives, if you could raise your hand identify 21 yourself. If you want or have an issue that you want to 22 bring to the attention of the department, please seek any 23 of these individuals out. There's a table out in the 24 hallway. You're welcome to fill out a form, and we will 25 follow up with you at another time. But we have very Page 6
1 limited amount of time, and it's critical that we get
2 through and address the specific issues that we're here to 3 do this evening. 4 Also, this is a hearing that we intend to 5 conclude at approximately 8:30 tonight. There are a large 6 number of people who want to speak tonight. We were only 7 able to get through a small fraction of the number of 8 people who wanted to speak at the hearing in Detroit. And 9 we want to get through as many people as possible this 10 evening. So anyone wishing to give testimony, you must 11 produce an orange public comment form. Again, there's 12 representatives from the department who are circulating 13 around the room. If you want to fill one of these out, 14 obtain a form, fill it out, and they'll make sure it gets 15 up to me or other members of the commission to make sure 16 that you're able to speak. 17 Again, the themes to this evening are listening, 18 and also about conduct. So please, this is an issue that 19 is very controversial. There may be people who speak that 20 you disagree with. But please respect every voice, every 21 opinion, every position on this this evening. It's 22 critically important in order for us to move through this, 23 and it's actually what this is all about. 24 Each speaker will be afforded five minutes 25 maximum. Doesn't mean you have to use five minutes, but Page 7
1 you have five minutes. We have our timekeeper who probably
2 has the toughest job this evening, Keesha Garrett, who's 3 sitting over here to the right. She's going to hold up a 4 sign that says "One minute remaining." When that sign goes 5 up, please draw your comments to a close. That's 6 critically important. Also, please do not applaud, clap, 7 cheer during a person's presentation or at any point in 8 this proceeding, that's important. 9 We are going to call witnesses first who allege 10 the voter fraud. These are individuals who either -- one 11 of three things occurred. They either signed a petition, 12 they were approached to sign a petition, or they were 13 involved in the petition process as a circulator. Those 14 are the people that we want to listen to first and 15 foremost. There will be a public comment period at the 16 end; albeit, a very abbreviated period of time, where other 17 individuals who have other ideas or views that they wish to 18 share regarding this issue are welcome to come forward. 19 We make take a short recess; we may not. We did 20 one in Detroit. It was like herding cats getting everybody 21 back into the room. So we may try to just roll through 22 this. With that -- oh, and one last thing. If you do have 23 a cell phone, please turn it off or at least put it on 24 vibrate while you're in the room here. It's distracting 25 for our court reporters who will be taking this down and Page 8
1 making a record, and it's just disruptive to the general
2 proceedings. 3 So without any other delay, unless I'm forgetting 4 anything else -- 5 MS. PARKER: I was just going to comment, Mr. 6 Commissioner, that there perhaps is a fourth category of 7 person who we're interested in hearing from. And those 8 would be those individuals who know that they did not sign 9 the petition but have reason to believe that their name has 10 been submitted as being an individual who has, in fact, 11 signed. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: And finally I'd like to say 13 before we begin -- and we said this at the Detroit meeting 14 and I want to say this again very clearly right now. We 15 have invited representatives from the Michigan Civil Rights 16 Initiative to speak, to participate, to share their views. 17 We would welcome their views. We would respect their 18 views. We want to hear their views. If there's anyone 19 from the MCRI who wishes to participate, if you will please 20 identify yourself to one of the department and fill out a 21 form, we'll make sure that you're able to present your 22 views and your opinions and provide you with an opportunity 23 to provide testimony. 24 So without any other delay, unless there's 25 anything else from any other commissioner, I'm going to Page 9
1 call our first witness which is Mr. Woodrow Stanely who's
2 the former mayor of the City of Flint and a current 3 commission member. And again, please no applause or any 4 cheering during these. Mr. Mayor, thank you for being 5 here. And if you could please stand, we're going to ask 6 every witness to take an oath. 7 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 8 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 9 MR. STANLEY: I do. 10 WOODROW STANLEY 11 having been called and sworn: 12 MR. STANLEY: Mr. Chairman, members of the 13 commission, let me first -- I want to thank you and welcome 14 you to our community. And as it relates to the no applause 15 rules, I can tell you, having held public office for over 16 20 years, I'll take applause wherever I can get them. But 17 I understand for decorum sake. 18 I was one of those folks that was approached to 19 sign the petition. But obviously -- and maybe not so 20 obviously given the fact there were a number of folks who 21 signed, I knew what the petitions were. And I was 22 approached quite frankly more than once to sign. And you 23 know, the -- I see now why a number of folks probably just 24 signed because individuals were using words like civil 25 rights and affirmative action. And probably at a cursory Page 10
1 kind of notice, those folks were thinking, hey, I'm doing
2 everything I can to support affirmative action. 3 But the one comment that I wanted to make -- and 4 I want to be very brief -- I think the hearings are 5 productive. And I want to again just underscore my thank 6 you to the commission for taking on this effort. But I'm a 7 realist. You know, I'm pragmatic about this. And I know 8 that if, in fact, you know, the legal groundwork that you 9 all are laying and what may come of it, if that does not 10 bear fruit, we have another much larger effort on our 11 hands. 12 And so I -- quite frankly, I'm a person that's 13 dealing with what I see as a pragmatic reality. And that 14 is, that we've got to take the issue of affirmative action 15 out of the context of being just about black folks because 16 that's the way a lot of folks see it, and not about the 17 fact that white women have been one of the biggest 18 beneficiaries of affirmative action. And, that, in fact, I 19 think that the playing field has been leveled for all 20 people, black and white, as a result of having affirmative 21 action programs. 22 And so I hope that those who speak understand 23 that we have work to do beyond this hearing. When you all 24 leave here, and if this in fact is an item that's on the 25 ballot later this year, we have to mobilize our community, Page 11
1 and I'm talking about the Michigan community as we've never
2 done before because this about more -- this is about 3 dividing our community for the political ends of some other 4 folks. And I know that's not the purpose of the 5 commission, but that's what this is all about. 6 Again, let me thank you for the opportunity to 7 come and share briefly with you. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Does anybody on the 9 commission have any questions? 10 MR. SCOTT: I was just curious about some more of 11 the details about how you were approached and where you 12 were approached. Did you get any information about the 13 person who asked you to sign the petition? 14 MR. STANLEY: I didn't get any information. I 15 was approached, I think, both times were at -- no, maybe 16 three times; one at the supermarket -- both times at a 17 supermarket, and then at some kind of outdoor event. I 18 don't know if it was a concert or some outdoor event. It 19 may have been downtown Flint at the River Bank Park. I 20 don't recall at this point. 21 But, you know, I just -- I think in one case I 22 recognized the person. I don't remember who it is right 23 now. But I actually recognized the person who was 24 circulating. And he was quite insistent that I should sign 25 this. And I won't use the language, because this is a Page 12
1 family show, that I used to explain why I -- and I don't
2 use that language except on Wednesdays and Thursdays. 3 MR. SCOTT: This person that you know, what race 4 is that person? 5 MR. STANLEY: Black. Well, all of the folks who 6 approached me were black. 7 MR. SCOTT: Okay. If you think about who that 8 person was, that person's name, could you get that to the 9 department? 10 MR. STANLEY: Sure. 11 MR. SCOTT: Great. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Were any representations made to 13 you by the circulators when they approached you that it was 14 an initiative to support affirmative action or that it was 15 for affirmative action or that it was just -- when they 16 approached you, what did they say or what did they do? 17 MR. STANLEY: Mr. Chairman, as I recall -- and 18 again, I cannot recall verbatim what their pitch was. But 19 clearly the pitch was that this was an effort to support 20 affirmative action. Clearly, you know, that was what the 21 pitch was. And I don't remember the exact words, but I 22 know the pitch was not, "Do you want to sign a petition to 23 get rid of affirmative action?" That is not what was said 24 on either of the three occasions when I had an opportunity 25 to encounter circulators. Page 13
1 MR. BERNSTEIN: As a member of the community who
2 speaks with many people in your daily life, your work, are 3 there other people -- is your story unusual or rare, or is 4 it common? 5 MR. STANLEY: I think it's quite common because 6 they were -- on the occasions where I encountered them, 7 they were at places where there were a lot of folks; at the 8 supermarket, very busy supermarket two occasions, and at an 9 outdoor concert or something where there were a lot of 10 folks. 11 And, Mr. Chairman, and members of the commission, 12 the one thing that I know from just years of circulating 13 various proposals and my own petitions and so forth, I know 14 this: People sign any and everything without 15 contemplating, without considering. A lot of times they 16 sign as a sort of a, well this will get them away from me 17 so I'll just sign this. And I just -- because when I 18 didn't sign, he would walk over to someone else, and 19 halfway through his pitch, they were signing. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. We're going to next 21 call Kathilaine A. Butler. And if you could please come 22 forward? Thank you. After this witness, Eric Mays will be 23 next. So I'm just going to give folks a heads up who's on 24 deck. It will make things move a little faster. 25 Page 14
1 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
2 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 3 MS. BUTLER: I do. 4 KATHILAINE BUTLER 5 having been called and sworn: 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome. 7 MS. BUTLER: Hi. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Please proceed. Do you have a 9 statement that you'd like to read or anything you'd like to 10 say? 11 MS. BUTLER: No. If you'd like me to tell my 12 story? 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: I would, please. 14 MS. BUTLER: Okay. I was approached at the 15 Kroger store near my house in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I'm not 16 exactly sure when this was. It was a few months ago at 17 least. It was a black person that approached me. It's 18 very busy in front of this Kroger store. And they said 19 they were from the Civil Rights Initiative, and it was 20 something about affirmative action. And because I am 21 definitely for affirmative action, I probably filled in for 22 that person and said, "Oh, is this a petition to keep 23 affirmative action?" And they probably said yes. I don't 24 remember exactly the wording that was involved. But I 25 signed it. I would say I probably signed it and didn't Page 15
1 read it because the person was black. I actually believed
2 that because the person was black, they couldn't possibly 3 be not for affirmative action. And that's my mistake. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you recall the approximate 5 date or time of that interaction? 6 MS. BUTLER: No, I'm afraid I can't. I can't. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you know anyone who had 8 similar experiences; friends or neighbors? 9 MS. BUTLER: I don't myself. I have been told 10 that there are people in my complex who have. I live in a 11 cooperative housing in Ann Arbor. It's federally funded 12 cooperative housing. It's called Arrowwood Hills. It's 13 not a neighborhood you'd live in if you did not believe in 14 affirmative action for many reasons. 15 I'm very upset that I was duped into signing this 16 petition. I feel like I was lied to, deliberately lied to. 17 I never, ever would sign a petition like this. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: So the individual who approached 19 you indicated that it was a petition related to affirmative 20 action, that it was for affirmative action, that it was in 21 support of affirmative action; do you recall? 22 MS. BUTLER: Like I said, I don't know exactly 23 what the wording was. I can't remember if they said "for" 24 or if I said "for." They could have said "regarding 25 affirmative action." They brought up the topic of Page 16
1 affirmative action, of course, and I may have filled in and
2 said, "Oh, is this a petition to keep it?" or "Is this a 3 petition for it?" But if that is the case, they would have 4 had to say yes in order for me to sign it. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: And in no instance there was no 6 representation that it was to ban affirmative action? 7 MS. BUTLER: No, there couldn't have been. 8 There's no way I would have signed it if it was. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Any other questions? 10 Thank you very much. 11 MS. BUTLER: Thank you. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Mays. Elizabeth Jordan who 13 filled out a form with be after this. If you could still 14 remain standing while you take an oath, please? 15 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 16 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 17 MR. MAYS: I do. 18 ERIC MAYS 19 having been called and sworn: 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: Can each of you please just state 21 your name? 22 MS. HORTON: Sally Horton. 23 MR. IRVIN: Sherman Irvin. 24 MR. MAYS: Eric Mays. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome. Page 17
1 MR. MAYS: Thank you. I would start out by
2 saying, first, I would like to thank the BAMN organization 3 for calling it to my attention. And I would like to thank 4 Kathryn Blake with the Flint branch of the NAACP. 5 Once they called to my attention what I had been 6 reading about, I have a local public access show so I 7 started talking about it on my cable show. And as a result 8 of that, I got calls from people, and I started looking at 9 the issue more closely. Once I looked at it closer and I 10 looked at the petition language -- I had heard all the talk 11 about affirmative action -- and the petition language 12 clearly talks about discriminating against, prohibiting 13 discrimination. 14 And so once I looked at the list of circulators, 15 I seen people who I know because I do a lot of petition 16 work on other things here locally and I had seen some of 17 the same circulators who have worked with me before. One 18 of them to my right is Sally Horton; the other one was 19 Sherman Irvin. These are two that is here tonight, but 20 I've talked with others. 21 And when I talked with them, I asked them 22 privately, "Did you really realize what this was?" And I 23 guess you'll hear from them tonight as to whether they did 24 or not, but they told me no. Sally explains to me today 25 she's still sorting it out from what I'm telling her now. Page 18
1 But they were paying.
2 And I've had a lot of experience with paid 3 petitioners. And even though the law requires you -- that 4 you can be paid -- I found out from a campaign with Mayor 5 Stanley; we had a saying that said we have the best 6 volunteers that money couldn't buy. I found out from 7 working with Mayor Williamson when you throw money in there 8 you've got a lot of mess. 9 So I'm here to tell you that I know these people 10 from growing up. They were circulators. I know from 11 talking to them privately what they were trained to do, 12 what they wasn't trained to do, what they understood and 13 what they didn't understand. And I think you're going to 14 get some interesting testimony. 15 Before I concede because the one minute card 16 ain't went up yet, I would say that when I looked at the 17 law closely, I seen a term of actual fraud defined in a 18 case of Supreme Court of Michigan case Goodrich versus 19 Miller. The cite was 314 MICH 456, 22 NW 2nd, 862. And it 20 defined actual fraud as "An intentional fraud which 21 consists of deception intentionally practiced to induce 22 another to part with a property right or to surrender some 23 legal right which accomplishes the end design." And then 24 what was most interesting, I seen the term constructive 25 fraud. Constructive fraud is a "Breech of legal or Page 19
1 equitable duty which irrespective of moral guilt of the
2 fraud feasor, the law declares fraudulent because of its 3 tendency to deceive others." And that's what I'm seeing. 4 Even in the language, I see constructive fraud. 5 Even in the way that circulators were purposely or 6 intentionally not trained, I see some constructive fraud. 7 And then finally when I looked at Michigan law, I spoke in 8 Detroit of MCLA 600.4545. Now I want to talk about MCLA 9 600.4501 because -4545 says, if we evidence this fraud, 10 then 30 days after the election I want the results set 11 aside because fraud have effected the outcome. If -4501 12 allows the attorney general to proceed prior, then that's 13 what I request. 14 And so I've drawn up an application that I would 15 like to tender to your counsel as I leave. It's an 16 application from a private citizen asking the Attorney 17 General to intervene up under statute. Now, I'll let you 18 hear from Sally Irvin -- or Sally Horton. I knew her as 19 Irvin. 20 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 21 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 22 MS. HORTON: I do. 23 SALLY HORTON and SHERMAN IRVINE 24 having been called and sworn: 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Horton, welcome. Thank you Page 20
1 for being here.
2 MS. HORTON: Thank you. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: You were a circulator for the 4 Michigan Civil Rights Initiative; correct? Gathering 5 signatures; is that correct? 6 MS. HORTON: Yes. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: How long did you work as a 8 circulator approximately? A week, a month, a few days? 9 MS. HORTON: As long as the petition was paying, 10 I was working. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what were they paying per -- 12 how did they pay? Was it per signature? 13 MS. HORTON: Per signature that checked out to be 14 a registered voter. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what was the amount that they 16 paid per signature; do you recall? 17 MS. HORTON: $1. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: $1? 19 MS. HORTON: Yeah. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: What did they tell you -- how did 21 you learn about this opportunity to work for the Michigan 22 Civil Rights Initiative? 23 MS. HORTON: Probably through my younger brother 24 who's not here. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what did you know about it, Page 21
1 or what were you told about it?
2 MS. HORTON: I didn't really know that much about 3 it. I don't think it was really explained enough to me to 4 go out and take the signatures. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: And where did you pick up the 6 materials before you went out to conduct your circulating 7 activities? Did someone mail them to you or drop them off 8 at your house, or did you go and pick them up? 9 MS. HORTON: No, I think we went to -- where did 10 we go pick them up at? Was that on -- I can't remember. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Don't remember. Okay. Do you 12 remember, Mr. -- 13 MR. IRVIN: I was saying that I picked it up on 14 the streets from somebody. I don't even remember who it 15 was; you know, just somebody else that was doing the 16 petition. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. He handed or she handed 18 you additional clipboards and pens and paper and the 19 material that you needed? 20 MR. IRVIN: Right; right, and got me started; 21 yeah. 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Who did you return -- and I'll 23 ask both of you this question. Ms. Horton first, who did 24 you return your completed petitions to? Was it an office? 25 Did you mail them to somebody? Page 22
1 MS. HORTON: An office, yeah.
2 MR. BERNSTEIN: An office. 3 MS. HORTON: I think it was downtown around by 4 the Salvation Army; around there. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: And how many signatures do you 6 think that you obtained approximately? 7 MS. HORTON: I can't remember. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Was it a small number? Was it 9 10? Was it 100? Was it 5? 10 MS. HORTON: Well, I was pretty good at 11 collecting signatures. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: You were good, huh. So what does 13 good mean? Is good many? 14 MS. HORTON: Yeah, I didn't know. Many; many. 15 MR. IRVIN: Many. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: More than 100 signatures? 17 MS. HORTON: Yes. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: More than 1,000 signatures? 19 MS. HORTON: Yes. 20 MR. IRVIN: Yes. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: More than 5,000 signatures? 22 MS. HORTON: No. 23 MR. IRVIN: No. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: So approximately 1,000, give or 25 take? Page 23
1 MS. HORTON: Yeah, give or take.
2 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Irvin, same questions for 3 you. 4 MR. IRVIN: Same thing. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: Same thing? You were a good 6 circulator too? 7 MR. IRVIN: Exact same thing. I was a good 8 circulator. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: You were a good circulator. 10 MR. IRVIN: And they paid good. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Now, what did they -- I don't 12 want to get you in trouble. What did they pay you per 13 signature? 14 MR. IRVIN: Same thing, $1 per signature. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Same thing, $1 per signature. 16 Okay. 17 MR. IRVIN: $1 for every signature. 18 MR. ABDRABBOH: How often did you get paid? 19 MR. IRVIN: I think it was -- what? -- once a 20 week. Wasn't it Sally? 21 MS. HORTON: They gave you a check -- you turned 22 them in. If you turned them in on a Monday, they check 23 them out Tuesday, and they pay you that following 24 Wednesday. So about two to three days. 25 MR. ABDRABBOH: Would they mail you a check, or Page 24
1 would they --
2 MS. HORTON: No. You come into the office and 3 pick the check up. 4 MR. ABDRABBOH: Did they always pay by check? 5 MS. HORTON: Yes. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Did they provide you with any 7 materials, any training materials, any information about 8 what this -- 9 MS. HORTON: No; no. Well, there was a sheet 10 that was given to us. They highlighted a little area, and 11 they said, "This is what you want to tell the people it's 12 mainly pertaining to." And that was it basically. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Were you aware or -- did you 14 approach people -- when you approached people to obtain 15 their signature, when you went up to somebody walking into 16 a grocery store or a drug store, what would you say to 17 them? 18 MS. HORTON: I thought it was actually against 19 affirmative action. So that's basically what I told the 20 people. 21 MR. SCOTT: You thought it was against 22 affirmative action, to end affirmative action, or you 23 thought it was for affirmative action? I'm asking you. 24 You've got to answer for yourself. What did you think? 25 You can't answer for her. Page 25
1 MR. MAYS: Discrimination and affirmative --
2 MR. SCOTT: I'm asking her. 3 MR. MAYS: -- action are still being cleared up, 4 that's why I'm -- 5 MR. SCOTT: I'm asking her though. You can't 6 answer for her. 7 MS. HORTON: That's what I'm saying. I don't 8 understand the word "affirmative action." That's why I 9 have to ask Eric. 10 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry? 11 MS. HORTON: I have to ask him because I didn't 12 understand the word against -- or whether it was against 13 or -- I wouldn't be against my own, you know -- 14 MR. SCOTT: Well, that's what I was asking. What 15 did you understand? Did you understand it to be against or 16 for affirmative -- what did you understand at the time that 17 you received the petition? 18 MS. HORTON: I don't know. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: And it's okay if you didn't 20 understand. Was it unclear? 21 MS. HORTON: I didn't understand it; right. And 22 I still don't understand it. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Okay. 24 MR. SCOTT: Are you personally for or against 25 affirmative action? Page 26
1 MS. HORTON: (No verbal response)
2 MR. ABDRABBOH: If I can just jump in for a 3 second? To make it easier, what did you think the petition 4 was for? How about that? 5 MS. HORTON: I thought the petition was for -- 6 MR. SCOTT: Would you please speak into the mike? 7 MS. HORTON: Yeah, I thought it was against 8 discrimination. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Any other questions from 10 the members of the commission? Anything else that you'd 11 like to add? 12 MS. HORTON: Had I known it wasn't for, I don't 13 think I would have did it. 14 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. 15 MR. ABDRABBOH: Mark, one question. Ma'am, do 16 you have the piece of paper that was given to you to 17 explain -- 18 MS. HORTON: The one that they gave us there? 19 MR. ABDRABBOH: Yes. 20 MS. HORTON: No. As a matter of fact, I moved 21 since I did the petition. I didn't keep anything. If I 22 seen it again -- if you had a form, I could show it to you. 23 But, no, I didn't keep it. 24 MR. ABDRABBOH: Do either one of you have any 25 names or phone numbers of people that, I guess, would maybe Page 27
1 be your supervisor or contact person?
2 MS. HORTON: No; no, because once they do, once 3 they get their signatures they move on. They don't give us 4 a way to get in touch with them. 5 MR. ABDRABBOH: Thank you. 6 MS. HORTON: You're welcome. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. Ms. Jordan, 8 Elizabeth Jordan. Sherry Bell will be next after Ms. 9 Jordan. Thank you. 10 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 11 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 12 MS. JORDAN: Yes. 13 ELIZABETH JORDAN 14 having been called and sworn: 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: I'll let you present your -- if 16 you have a prepared statement or anything that you'd like 17 to say. 18 MS. JORDAN: Thank you. I was approached twice 19 for my signature over the last summer within about a two or 20 three week period. The first time it happened was just 21 outside the Value City in Flint. And it was two young 22 white women who approached me. And they asked me -- I 23 can't remember their exact words, but it was essentially, 24 you know, "Are you in favor of civil rights?" And I said, 25 "Well, yeah." And they said, "Well, then would you like to Page 28
1 sign this petition?" And I said, "What's this about?" And
2 they said, "Well, are you in favor of making entry into 3 college equal?" And of course I am in favor of that. 4 But I think I had heard a report on the radio 5 some weeks prior stating that there was going to be this 6 petition drive coming to Michigan. And so it kind of 7 tickled the back of my mind. And before I signed I said, 8 "Oh, is this about affirmative action?" They never used 9 the term "affirmative action." But when I asked that and I 10 asked, "Is this against affirmative action," she said, 11 "Well, yeah." And I got really offended at that point 12 because that's not at all what I would have believed if I 13 hadn't specifically thought to ask that question. And so I 14 said, "Absolutely not. I'm not going to sign this." And 15 she was kind of persistent for a moment. But I said, "This 16 is not what I'm in favor of. I'm not going to sign it." 17 And I ended up going into the inside of the store with my 18 mother. And we got the store manager who asked the young 19 women to leave because they hadn't had any permission to be 20 there. 21 And then a couple of weeks later at the Meijers 22 on Center Road, a very similar process happened again. And 23 again I went inside to get the store manager, except for by 24 that time when they came out, the two women had already 25 left. So that was my experience. Page 29
1 MR. BERNSTEIN: So do you recall the approximate
2 time of day and specific location? 3 MS. JORDAN: Right. Both times it happened in 4 the afternoon. I'd say earlier in the afternoon on the 5 first occasion which was at Value City on Fenton Road. The 6 second occasion was at Meijers probably later in the 7 afternoon on Center. 8 MR. SCOTT: Did you recognize either of the 9 signers on either occasion or either of the petition 10 gatherers on either occasion? 11 MS. JORDAN: I hadn't seen them before. 12 MR. SCOTT: You said each time they were two -- 13 they were both white women? 14 MS. JORDAN: Yes. I think they were two 15 different pairs possibly, but they were all white. 16 MR. ABDRABBOH: What would be, I guess, the 17 misleading part or the fraudulent part of it if you asked 18 them how this relates to affirmative action and they told 19 you? How were you -- 20 MS. JORDAN: I think that the part to me that is 21 misleading is that the onus was on me to remember that I 22 had heard a report several weeks earlier that there was 23 this initiative coming to Michigan, and, therefore, it put 24 me on the lookout for it. If I hadn't heard that report, I 25 would have never thought to ask that question. And so I'm Page 30
1 sure for other folks who didn't have that background
2 information already -- when I was a public policy major, 3 this is what I studied. I knew the question to ask. And 4 if I hadn't had that background, I wouldn't have asked that 5 question, I would not have been informed, and I would 6 likely have signed it. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions? Thank you 8 very much. 9 MS. JORDAN: Thank you. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Bell. Kim Peterson, if 11 you're here, will be next. 12 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 13 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 14 MS. BELL: Yes. 15 SHERRY BELL 16 having been called and sworn: 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome, Ms. Bell. 18 MS. BELL: Hi. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: How are you? 20 MS. BELL: It's cold. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: You should be up here. It's a 22 little hotter up here. I'll give you an opportunity to 23 make a statement if you'd like. 24 MS. BELL: My name is Sherry Bell. And I can't 25 quite remember if I was approached at Value City because I Page 31
1 was approached twice. And I'm very leery, working for the
2 federal government you become very leery. So I read the 3 petition, and I thought it was for affirmative action. And 4 I signed it and asked some questions about it. And they 5 said that it was because of what was going on in Lansing 6 with the students and things, that it was about affirmative 7 action and that they were trying to get rid of it. And I 8 thought it was that guy who was with Mays. That's who it 9 looked like the petition I signed for, but I wasn't for 10 sure. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: So when someone approached you to 12 obtain your signature, could you explain what did they say 13 to you? What kind of interaction did you have with that 14 individual? 15 MS. BELL: They said that -- they asked would I 16 like to sign a petition. And I said what was it about. 17 And they said it was about affirmative action. So I took 18 it from them and read it. And the wording seemed like it 19 was for affirmative action, and I signed it. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what made you believe that 21 the wording was supportive of affirmative action? 22 MS. BELL: I can't quite -- the way it was worded 23 that it was to keep them from taking our affirmative action 24 away from what I can remember. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you recall the time and place Page 32
1 of this interaction?
2 MS. BELL: Like I said, it was two places I was 3 approached. And I had told the second place that I had 4 already signed the petition. So I'm thinking it might have 5 been in the late afternoon, early evening. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions from members 7 of the commission? No? 8 MR. SCOTT: Looked like you had something else to 9 say? 10 MS. BELL: No; no. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. Kim 12 Peterson if you're here? Heather Miller will be next. 13 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 14 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 15 MS. PETERSON: Yes, I do. 16 KIM PETERSON 17 having been called and sworn: 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: You have an opportunity to make a 19 statement if you'd like. 20 MS. PETERSON: Yes. It was probably the summer 21 of 2004. I was walking downtown walking past the district 22 court, the McCree Building and -- 23 MS. PARKER: Could you push the mike closer to 24 you, Ms. Peterson? 25 MS. PETERSON: I was walking downtown Flint, and Page 33
1 a male approached me, a black male approached me. And he
2 had the petition, the clipboard, and he asked me to sign a 3 petition. He said it was -- he said if I didn't want to 4 have discrimination -- you know, more or less pushing it in 5 that direction. So I asked him to see it and read it for 6 myself. And the reason why I read it and didn't just sign 7 it is because I had been hearing about them trying to ban 8 affirmative action. And then I'm very leery about 9 petitions because the petitions I've seen in the past few 10 years are always misleading with the wording and that's a 11 concern of mine. 12 So I did read it. And it took me awhile to read 13 it because it's always just some word in there that will 14 change the meaning. So after reading it and completing it 15 until I figured out I fully understood what it said, I came 16 to the conclusion that it was against affirmative action 17 and I did not sign it. 18 And I just looked at the guy, and I handed it 19 back to him and I was very appalled. To this day I regret 20 not asking him why he was passing that out especially in a 21 like area that I felt like was high traffic for black 22 people. And I felt like him being black -- not saying that 23 you have to be for affirmative action because you're black, 24 but I was wondering like how much are they giving you to 25 sell your soul. Page 34
1 And then so what happened was, it just so
2 happened that yesterday I was walking in this building, and 3 I just happened to see the information about tonight. So 4 that's how I got here today. And so I spoke with someone 5 over the phone about this. And on my lunch hour today, I 6 happened to just run home, only had a couple of minutes, 7 and I got on the internet to the website, the BAMN.com 8 website. 9 And so it said, you know, like if you have been 10 approached or if you know someone -- which I didn't know 11 anyone, but I did just put in my last name. And I put in 12 different zip codes around Flint. I saw an uncle, David 13 Peterson, Olive E. Peterson his wife, a cousin Patricia 14 Nyoki (phonetic) Peterson, and an aunt JoRuth Richmond. I 15 happened to call her on my way back to work and just ask 16 her did she vaguely recall it. She said vaguely, but she 17 said under no way would she have signed it had she known. 18 And me just speaking for the other relatives, I know they 19 would not have signed that. So that's basically it. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: How many names did you see on 21 that? Are you done with your statement? I didn't mean to 22 interrupt you. 23 MS. PETERSON: Uh-huh (affirmative). 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: How many names did you see on 25 that list when you checked on the web approximately that Page 35
1 you knew?
2 MS. PETERSON: You mean as far as that I 3 recognized? 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: That you recognized, yeah. 5 MS. PETERSON: Four and a possible five. 6 MR. SCOTT: You only contacted one of those 7 people? You only had the opportunity to -- 8 MS. PETERSON: Just one; just one. And I 9 probably will contact the others. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: In your interaction with the 11 circulator, did that circulator present to you that this 12 was supportive -- that their initiative was supportive of 13 affirmative action or that it would, in fact, ban 14 affirmative action? 15 MS. PETERSON: He leaned more towards support it. 16 He was vague with that he was saying -- how he said it too 17 was like, "Do you want to" -- he said do you want to keep 18 discrimination out of like -- as far as like, entry into 19 college, you know, university, and things of that nature. 20 And he said like to keep affirmative action going. That's 21 how he put it, you know, to that extent. 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: So did he say, "This is a 23 petition that's for affirmative action"? 24 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. And when he said, "This is Page 36
1 a petition for affirmative action," did you take "for" to
2 mean that it was supportive of affirmative action? 3 MS. PETERSON: That's what I took it to mean. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Not that it was for, it was 5 dealing with the subject of affirmative action? 6 MS. PETERSON: The subject; the subject. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Let me clarify. So you took it 8 to mean that when he said this is "for" -- or this 9 individual indicated to you that it was "for affirmative 10 action," that they were -- that the content was supportive 11 of affirmative action, or that it was -- 12 MS. PETERSON: The content was regarding. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Was regarding affirmative action? 14 MS. PETERSON: Regarding. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. 16 MR. ABDRABBOH: Well, I had a question. What 17 evidence do you have that, you know, this man was doing 18 this intentionally? 19 MS. PETERSON: You said intentionally? 20 MR. ABDRABBOH: Yeah. Maybe -- what evidence do 21 you have either way that you can point to that shows that 22 this man wasn't defrauded himself? 23 MS. PETERSON: I don't. But now just listening 24 to other people's testimony, there's very well that 25 possibility. Page 37
1 MR. ABDRABBOH: So you really don't know either
2 way? 3 MS. PETERSON: I don't. 4 MR. ABDRABBOH: You don't know if he was taking a 5 political position, or he didn't know what he was doing and 6 he -- 7 MS. PETERSON: Up until today I didn't possibly 8 give that a thought, but now I do. But at that point, I 9 didn't look at it that way. I assumed he knew what he was 10 doing and what he was representing. 11 MS. STOKES: And you said that he said it was 12 against discrimination? Are those the words that you used? 13 MS. PETERSON: Yes, to keep out -- yes. 14 MS. STOKES: That this would be something to 15 support anybody that's against discrimination? 16 MS. PETERSON: Correct. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions? Thank you 18 very much. Ms. Miller. Reverend Hill, if you're here, 19 will be next. 20 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 21 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 22 MS. MILLER: Yes, I do. 23 M. HEATHER MILLER 24 having been called and sworn: 25 MS. MILLER: Yes, my name is M. Heather Miller. Page 38
1 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Miller, before you begin, I
2 know you testified at the Detroit hearing. So I don't want 3 to do anything that duplicates or that's redundant. Do you 4 have any new information that you wish to present? 5 MS. MILLER: Yes; yes, I do. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Go ahead. 7 MS. MILLER: I'd like to start by letting people 8 know I am a Detroit teacher and also letting people know I 9 got my 35th, fifth grader today in school. And we have all 10 of two bathrooms to serve the whole third, fourth, and 11 fifth grade students in my school just to give you an idea 12 of what the day is like. 13 I've done extensive research on this, on the 14 affirmative action, the anti-affirmative action petition 15 drive here in Flint. I've taken a number of days of leave 16 from my job without pay. I actually spent the last three 17 days, the weekend here, researching, talking to people, 18 talking to -- literally I think since the beginning of this 19 talking to hundreds of people. 20 I have in front of me five sworn statements, 21 affidavits from five circulators who represent many, many, 22 many Flint signers. I don't even know how many, but my 23 guess is it's well over a thousand Flint signers. And I'd 24 just like to tell you my experience with speaking with 25 those people who I spent quite a few hours talking to these Page 39
1 five individuals.
2 The first one is Christi Lynn Sanders. She's a 3 white woman. She's married to a black man. Her two 4 children she referred to herself as two black children. 5 She circulated for only about two days. She went in front 6 of a store which seems to be the common thing here in 7 Flint. They were very -- circulating a lot in front of 8 little like Dollar Stores and Kessell seems to be a big 9 place where people circulated. She was circulating in 10 front of a store, and she kept getting yelled at and she 11 didn't understand why. She had no understanding of why 12 they were doing that. She was telling people it was for 13 affirmative action. She couldn't understand why people 14 would be so opposed to that. 15 She went back another day, her second day 16 circulating, and she was with her daughter, a teenage 17 daughter at the time. And she started -- a woman came up 18 to her. I believe it was a woman came up to her and 19 started screaming at her, "How could you do this? How 20 could you do this to your daughter?" And she was 21 completely confused and upset. And it dawned on her. She 22 finally realized that what she was doing was lying to 23 people. She was telling them to sign a petition for 24 affirmative action to help their children get into college 25 when the exact opposite is true. It dawned on her. She Page 40
1 quit immediately.
2 We asked her if she remembered who it was she 3 hooked up with, who were the people that got her this job. 4 She said she found a little card, a little advertisement in 5 a telephone booth that she called. We asked her where did 6 she go to pick up the petitions and get her money. She 7 said the place always changed. She was told to go to the 8 Halo Burger and then it changed to the Flint Library, and 9 then it changed to the Arby's or the Hardee's in town. It 10 was a real -- you know, a real shady kind of operation that 11 was going on. And that's Christi Lynn Sanders. I have her 12 statement. 13 I talked to two women, June Scroggins and Yvonne 14 Moore. They both live in the same public housing together. 15 They're both black women. They petitioned a lot. They got 16 a lot of signatures. And Yvonne and June petitioned a lot 17 together. They did a lot in front of the courthouses. And 18 I asked what was their pitch. Like you were saying, what 19 did they say to people. And the big thing they said that 20 they got the most signatures for was telling people that it 21 was for affirmative action, to end discrimination, and to 22 help them get their children into college, and to stop 23 racism. Those were the things that they said that they 24 found were most successful. 25 June petitioned all over the place, got a lot of Page 41
1 signatures. I think on the 500 sample that the Board of
2 Canvassers or the elections commission did, her name showed 3 up as a circulator quite a number of times. Her building 4 manager after quite some time came up to her and said, "Do 5 you realize what you're doing?" And she said, "Yeah, I'm 6 circulating a petition to end discrimination." She said, 7 "No, you're circulating a petition to end affirmative 8 action." And it finally sunk in to her as well, and she 9 quit after that. 10 Yvonne Moore, her friend, same thing, same pitch, 11 same story. Only Yvonne has a unique situation. She quit 12 after the November election when she and two other black 13 women were put into a van. A white man who was 14 circulating, who was head of the circulators it seems to be 15 in Flint -- which would be a nice thing for your 16 organization to do to find out who these people were who 17 organized this in Flint -- got these three black women in a 18 van, drove them to Jackson to work the polls on election 19 day. And I remember election day. I worked the polls that 20 day as well, and it was a rainy, cold day all day. She was 21 there from opening to closing. She called the man on her 22 cell phone. She was done, needed a ride back to Flint. He 23 did not answer the phone. She was left in Jackson by 24 herself. 25 She's a very -- one of the reasons why she's not Page 42
1 here tonight, she's one of the most shyest persons I've
2 ever met. I'm wondering how she even was able to approach 3 people to petition. She stood there until midnight 4 absolutely confused, not knowing what to do. Finally, a 5 police officer drove up said, "What are you doing here?" 6 She was in tears, "I don't know. I was left here. I can't 7 get ahold of these people. They won't come back and get 8 me." And he drove her to the bus station. She took a bus 9 back home. Nothing was ever said to her, no phone call was 10 ever made to her. She quit after that. 11 We talked to Elitha Marie Shumpert who was 12 petitioning and had an altercation with the people who 13 also -- all of these people have the same story. They had 14 to go to Arby's, Hardee's, Halo Burger. They had to go to 15 all these different places every time to drop off their 16 petitions and pick up checks just like personal checks. 17 They weren't like paychecks. There were no pay stubs. 18 Sometimes they were even paid in cash. 19 Elitha went in and said, "People are yelling at 20 me. They're telling me this is against affirmative action. 21 Is this against affirmative action?" Again, a white man 22 told her, no, it's not against affirmative action. And she 23 made this emphatically to me when she spoke to me. Not at 24 all, it's not against affirmative action; not at all. She 25 went back out again petitioning. And again, realized -- Page 43
1 she has teenage children herself. Realizing she was -- I
2 think she used the word going against her own people, she 3 quit. She went in. She said, "You lied to me." She 4 wanted her petitions back. She wanted to throw them away. 5 They called the police on her for doing that. That's 6 Elitha Marie Shumpert. 7 And then Lerwonia Summers who is her sister; same 8 idea. She went around petitioning, telling people it was 9 for affirmative action when indeed the exact opposite is 10 the truth. It was against affirmative action. And between 11 these five women, they got thousands of signatures on the 12 basis of lies and deceit. And they themselves were lied 13 to. 14 And what we have found in Flint is overwhelming. 15 I think even more so than what we've seen in Detroit. 16 There was a definite concerted effort to racially target 17 the people of Flint to take away their young people's 18 rights to go to college. And we are here today to say -- 19 the people in this room -- that it cannot go forward on the 20 basis of lies and deceit. And you as a body representing 21 and protecting the civil rights of the people of the state 22 have a duty and an obligation to prevent this from going 23 forward on the basis of lies and deceit. 24 And I have -- I literally don't get paid. I take 25 days off from work where I have lost hundreds of dollars of Page 44
1 my own money to do this research. This is something that
2 your body needs to be doing across the state. We have 3 nonpaid -- or in my case, taking-money-away people going 4 out and doing this research. And it's got to be done. The 5 level of deceit is immense. It is immense. And I think 6 it's got to be researched. 7 The last thing -- I know I'm out of time. The 8 last thing I want to say is we have a list of Flint 9 students who are from Northern High School, which I just 10 went to the other day, which needs affirmative action, 11 believe me. And there are eight students here, many of 12 whom have looked on lists and found relatives of theirs on 13 the lists and talked to those relatives. They want a 14 chance to come up and speak as a group and tell you what 15 they felt like when they saw their family's names; mothers, 16 aunts, uncles on that list and what this means to them. 17 And I'm going to give you this list of names for them to 18 speak. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. What we'll do is 20 we'll work to get them involved in during the public 21 comment period of time. I have some questions, if I may. 22 You have been involved in looking into the activities of 23 the circulators and other pieces of the puzzle. And you 24 have alluded to this, but how does Flint compare to Detroit 25 or compare to Jackson or Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor? Page 45
1 Conceptualize it a bit.
2 MS. MILLER: I can say that I've done about equal 3 amount of research in Detroit as I have in Flint. And the 4 one thing we found in Flint much moreso than in Detroit -- 5 first of all, the circulators. We found many, many more 6 circulators willing to come forward because they feel 7 themselves so angry. They were lied to. The two 8 circulators who were here today were scared to death, and 9 they clearly were confused themselves. There was no 10 training. There was no -- nothing of that sort. The only 11 training whatsoever was when they came back, they said, 12 "No, it's for affirmative action so go back out and do your 13 job." 14 The other thing I found in Flint is, if you ask 15 the people here, most people are testifying aren't saying 16 they were approached one time. We were approached, two, 17 three, four times. We were approached outside our church. 18 There's hopefully -- I think there's someone here from Foss 19 Avenue Baptist Church. There was a revival at Foss Avenue 20 Baptist Church where they petitioned. They asked the 21 pastor if they could circulate a petition in support of 22 affirmative action. The pastor didn't really read it; said 23 sure. An attorney read it, and the attorney saw what it 24 really was about, went and talked to the pastor. They went 25 up and said, "We want those petitions back. You lied to Page 46
1 us. We don't want our names on there." The petitioner
2 refused to do that. They had to call the police to get 3 those petitions back, and stories like that. 4 People in Flint I think -- the reason why I think 5 they were much more targeted in Flint is because Flint is a 6 smaller community, and people here have fought very hard. 7 They just recently have gone through a lot of local 8 turmoil. They know what it means to fight politically. So 9 they took advantage of that in Flint. 10 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask you a question? 11 MS. MILLER: Sure. 12 MR. SCOTT: Did you ask or inform -- any of the 13 five affiants, did you inform any of them about tonight's 14 proceedings? 15 MS. MILLER: I did. I did awhile ago. And 16 they're -- other than one of them, you know, they have no 17 transportation. They're -- you know, they're quite -- I 18 mean, a lot of these circulators are living on the edge and 19 it's very difficult for them. Sometimes we can't even get 20 ahold of them. You know, they move from place to place. 21 So I did make an effort to try to get them to come. And I 22 think if we have -- I think Flint needs more hearings. We 23 could get them to come to other hearings. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Miller, was it your 25 impression that it was a -- this is inappropriate, loose Page 47
1 phrasing -- but a pyramid scheme? In other words, there
2 was a person, there was a group of circulators who are out 3 obtaining signatures in the trenches, so to speak, and then 4 immediately above them is an individual who is responsible 5 for a group of people. And the personal check comment was 6 curious to me. And that they're just aggregating up and up 7 and up into this pyramid to the top where they're all 8 finally, you know, bound together and submitted. Did you 9 get -- 10 MS. MILLER: Yeah, I definitely think -- and 11 that's the other thing about Flint. We have the impression 12 from the people that we've spoken to that it's actually a 13 very small group in Flint. And they were white. It was -- 14 from everyone I spoke to, it was a white couple, a man and 15 a woman, and they had a van, a white van. And believe me, 16 we've been trying to find out who these two people are. 17 And it sounds like they hired a number of these 18 petitioners. 19 And I would even guess -- and I know I'm on 20 record here so I don't know for sure. But I would guess by 21 the fact that they were paid in cash and personal check -- 22 that we know that people were paid per signature. And I'm 23 guessing that they subcontracted that work out, which I 24 think is -- there's got to be something illegal about it. 25 That they subcontracted the work out and they themselves Page 48
1 got 2 or $3 a signature, but the petitioners got $1 a
2 signature because almost everyone we spoke to said they got 3 $1 a signature. But we know that they were getting paid 2 4 and even $3 a signature because they had to do it in the 5 fall instead of in the summer, which is the ideal time to 6 be petitioning. They had to do it in the fall and the 7 winter when it's harder to get people to petition. 8 So I honestly think there was -- other than just 9 racially targeted fraud which is vast and widespread, I 10 wouldn't be surprised if there was tax fraud and all kinds 11 of other money laundering schemes going on because we have 12 the sense -- and we've had different names: Dan, Gary; some 13 people I think actually we have their names in the 14 affidavits. But it's a white couple that seems to have 15 subcontracted the work out, most of the work in Flint. And 16 the fact that people were paid in cash and personal check 17 makes me think that those people made off like bandits and 18 paid the generally poor black people in the city very 19 little money. 20 MR. ABDRABBOH: I have a question. It's kind of 21 a follow-up to one of your comments. You were talking 22 about the white van, and you'd like this body to find it. 23 You were in Detroit. We've heard a lot of testimony that 24 seems consistent. But, you know, unless my memory is bad, 25 I haven't heard anything -- and maybe you can provide it Page 49
1 and maybe everyone else that's coming up can keep this
2 question in mind. Does anybody have any names, telephone 3 numbers, addresses, copy of a check? Can you provide that? 4 MS. MILLER: We've tried all of that. We've 5 tried all of that. They weren't paid like I get paid. 6 When I get paid, I have a whole check stub that has my -- 7 all my information on it. They got -- from what I 8 understand, they got like a check that I write when I pay 9 off my, you know, Visa bill. It's my understanding that's 10 how they got paid. 11 And we've asked. We've asked every -- we asked 12 Christi Lynn Sanders who found a little card in the phone 13 booth. We said, "Can you find that little card" because 14 she thought she had it. She couldn't find it. They never 15 went to an established office. You know, they never went 16 to -- like, you know, if you have some kind of company, you 17 go to an established office. They were always working out 18 of some fast food restaurant or something like that. 19 So we did ask. And we got some names. And I 20 haven't looked at these affidavits in awhile. But if you 21 could look through the affidavits, we've got some names. 22 But no one could remember anything specific about a first 23 and a last name. 24 But my question is, can't you as a body subpoena 25 MCRI's records and find out who these people were? I mean, Page 50
1 there has to -- they have to have kept records. This was a
2 business; right? They paid people millions of -- this must 3 have cost millions of dollars. Can't we subpoena and find 4 out who those people are? And we could go back to the 5 circulators with some names and say, "Are these" -- and 6 they'll find them. They'll find out who these people are. 7 And then I really think you look into this -- if 8 this gets looked into, you are going to find not only 9 racially targeted fraud, but you are going to find tax 10 fraud. You are going to find people who were making money 11 by other people doing the work, and they certainly weren't 12 declaring it if they're paying them in cash. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: I'd just like to keep this on the 14 topic of circulation and circulator activity. Is there 15 anybody else that has a question on the commission? 16 MR. WESAW: I have one more. You mentioned twice 17 during your presentation that the police were called. Do 18 you have the ability to kind of narrow down the dates when 19 that may have occurred? 20 MS. MILLER: Kathryn Blake is here. She many 21 know the -- it was the Foss Avenue Baptist Church revival. 22 And my guess is they know when the date was. They have to 23 know when that date was. I don't. I just heard the story 24 the other night. 25 AUDIENCE: It was downtown. Page 51
1 MS. MILLER: It was downtown on the river front.
2 MR. SCOTT: We want a date. 3 MS. MILLER: I don't know. I could probably get 4 that for you. But I'm sure there's a record. There's 5 probably even a police record of it. And then the other 6 one with Ms. Shumpert, I don't know the date on that. I 7 don't. 8 MR. WESAW: If at some point you come up with 9 those dates, I would be very interested in getting them. 10 MS. MILLER: Sure; sure. Okay. Can I give you 11 the names of the students? 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes, please. And I'd also -- 13 unless there's other additional questions, I'd like to 14 enter the affidavits that you were referring to into the 15 record. 16 MS. MILLER: Yeah, I got them. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: So if you could bring those up 18 please, that would be helpful. Why don't you just give 19 them to the court reporter? Thank you. And thank you very 20 much. 21 (Exhibit 1 marked) 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Reverend Hill. Welcome. 23 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 24 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 25 MR. HILL: I do. Page 52
1 WILLIE HILL
2 having been called and sworn: 3 MR. HILL: I am Reverend Willie Hill. I was 4 approached at Giant Supermarket on Saginaw Street, and he 5 asked me did I want to sign a petition to keep affirmative 6 action in support. And I said I would sign it because I 7 thought he was saying that he wanted to keep it in support. 8 So I signed it. But I went back -- I go back a couple of 9 more weeks, he was still there. There was two guys. And 10 they just stayed there signing people. I went in and come 11 out, and they were still out there. 12 So one thing about it, I would never have signed 13 it if I had known that it was against affirmative action 14 because I know how hard it was to get things going in them 15 days because I'm an old timer. I come from the old school. 16 I know what it took for us to get anything. I come from 17 Mississippi. I couldn't even vote. I didn't vote until I 18 got here. And my name, my integrity have been mistreated. 19 I don't like that. I'm an upright man. I believe that 20 someone should tell me the truth. He told me a lie. He 21 said it was -- this supports affirmative action to keep it 22 in -- because I asked him a second time. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: So let me ask you some questions 24 here. You were approached by an individual who said that 25 the petition was in support of affirmative action; is that Page 53
1 correct?
2 MR. HILL: To keep affirmative action. I asked 3 him again, to keep affirmative action and support. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: And when you asked him, did he 5 say that it supported affirmative action, or did you ask 6 him if it support affirmative action? 7 MR. HILL: I asked him. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what answer did he give to 9 you? 10 MR. HILL: He gave me the same -- 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: He said it does support 12 affirmative action? 13 MR. HILL: Yes; yes, supports affirmative action. 14 MR. BERNSTEIN: And this individual approached 15 you, you said multiple times or just one time? 16 MR. HILL: It was about one time. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you recall where this 18 occurred? 19 MR. HILL: I said Giant Supermarket on Saginaw 20 Street; Great Giant. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Great Giant. Were there other 22 members of your congregation who have similar -- that had 23 similar experiences? 24 MR. HILL: At Antioch we got a lot of people that 25 signed it. I don't know where they signed it at. Pastor Page 54
1 always taught us against signing your name, you know. But
2 they had to tell us the same thing they told them for that 3 many people to sign those petitions. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: And the individual, the 5 circulator, this person, was it a man or a woman? 6 MR. HILL: He was a man; two men. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Two men. And did they say that 8 it would ban affirmative action? 9 MR. HILL: No, never said ban. 10 MR. SCOTT: Did you recognize either of those 11 individuals? 12 MR. HILL: No, I don't know them. I've never 13 known them. 14 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions from the 15 commission? No? Thank you very much. Next is Mr. Fred 16 Anthony if you're here, please. And then Mr. James Edwards 17 if you're present, you'll be next. 18 Reporter: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 19 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 20 MR. ANTHONY: Yes. 21 FRED ANTHONY 22 having been called and sworn: 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome. 24 MR. ANTHONY: Thank you. My name is Fred 25 Anthony, Junior. And I was approached at Kessell's, and Page 55
1 the guy told me that it was to -- for affirmative action
2 because I would have never signed anything that said 3 banning affirmative action. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: When the circulator approached 5 you and said, as you said, for affirmative action, did you 6 take that to mean that it was in support of affirmative 7 action? 8 MR. ANTHONY: Yeah, because he said it was for 9 affirmative action, to keep it on the ballot. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: And did you ask him any questions 11 about what he meant by that, or did you just trust his 12 statement? 13 MR. ANTHONY: No. I mean, when he said it was 14 for affirmative action, I'm like, yeah, okay, no problem. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you recall what time of day 16 and where, what approximate date this was? 17 MR. ANTHONY: It was early afternoon. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: On a weekday or a -- 19 MR. ANTHONY: It was during the week. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: During the week? 21 MR. ANTHONY: Yeah. And the guy was out there -- 22 okay. Because I went into the store because he asked me to 23 do it before I went in. I said no because I got to do the 24 shopping right quick, and I'll sign it when I come back 25 out. And when I came back out maybe about 45 minutes to an Page 56
1 hour later, he was still there.
2 MR. BERNSTEIN: And did you observe any other 3 activity by this individuals? Did he approach other 4 individuals with the same -- 5 MR. ANTHONY: Yeah, he approached everybody that 6 came out of the store or was going into the store. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: And do you hear him say anything 8 to those people? 9 MR. ANTHONY: The same comment, that this was to 10 support affirmative action to keep it on the ballot. See, 11 I'd have never signed anything like that. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Are there any other questions 13 from the commission? Anything else you'd like to say, sir? 14 MR. ANTHONY: Nope. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. 16 Edwards. Ms. Theresa Anthony will be next if you're here. 17 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 18 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 19 MR. EDWARDS: I do. 20 JAMES EDWARDS 21 having been called and sworn: 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome, Mr. Edwards. 23 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you have anything you'd like 25 to say as a statement preliminarily? Page 57
1 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. I -- let's see. Where were I
2 when I signed it. It had to be at Landmark Great Giant 3 where I signed it at. 4 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry. Sir, could you pull the 5 mike closer to you? 6 MR. EDWARDS: What day it was? I don't recall 7 what day it was. Anyway, I know I signed it. It was for 8 affirmative action, not to abolish affirmative action. If 9 I'd known it was going that way, I never would have signed 10 it. But he told me it was for affirmative action. 11 MR. SCOTT: Do you recall the words that he 12 actually used? 13 MR. EDWARDS: To keep affirmative action going 14 because they was trying to ban it. I told him, "Okay. 15 Well, I'll sign it if it's going to keep it going." 16 MR. SCOTT: Did you ask him any questions? 17 MR. EDWARDS: No. Only thing he told me it was 18 for affirmative action, to keep affirmative action going, 19 not to abolish affirmative action. 20 MR. SCOTT: Can you describe the individual who 21 was the petition gatherer? 22 MR. EDWARDS: No, I can't; no. 23 MR. SCOTT: It was a male? 24 MR. EDWARDS: Yeah, -- 25 MR. SCOTT: Black or white? Page 58
1 MR. EDWARDS: -- black male. Black male. I was
2 approached two or three times, and I told him, "I signed it 3 already." 4 MR. SCOTT: Two or three times by the same person 5 you were approached? 6 MR. EDWARDS: No, it wasn't the same person. It 7 was a man and a woman one place, and I told them I had 8 signed it already. Wherever that was, I don't know. 9 Landmark or Great Giant, one of the two. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: And when these individuals 11 approached you, sir, on multiple occasions as you just 12 stated, they had a similar presentation to you? It was 13 presented as if it was in support of affirmative action? 14 MR. EDWARDS: Right. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: It was consistent every time that 16 they approached you was roughly the same message? 17 MR. EDWARDS: Right. To keep from abolishing 18 affirmative action. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: To stop or to prevent the 20 abolition of affirmative action? 21 MR. EDWARDS: Right; right; right, to keep -- 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Over what period of time did 23 these interactions occur? Was it over a day or a week or a 24 month? 25 MR. EDWARDS: I would say like maybe on a Monday Page 59
1 morning I go in Landmark, and maybe Tuesday or Wednesday I
2 go in Great Giant and different guys, you know. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you know of anyone else who 4 had similar experiences as yourself? 5 MR. EDWARDS: No. I didn't know it was like this 6 until Ms. Blake called me and told me about it. You know, 7 if I had of known it was against affirmative action, I 8 never would have signed it, you know. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: Are there any other questions 10 from the commission? Sir, thank you very much. Is Ms. 11 Anthony here, Theresa Anthony? Okay. How about Jessie 12 Allen Anthony, are you present? Mr. Samuel Pickens, are 13 you present? Okay. Let's call a Mr. George Washington if 14 you're present. Coming across the Delaware River. I'm 15 sure that's a much abused -- well-worn path, I'm sure. 16 After General Washington, Mr. Ganges. 17 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 18 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 19 MR. WASHINGTON: I do. 20 GEORGE WASHINGTON 21 having been called and sworn: 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome. 23 MR. WASHINGTON: Welcome. My name is George 24 Washington. I was personally approached on this in 25 Detroit, downtown Detroit by a middle aged black woman. Page 60
1 Frankly, I didn't give her a chance to say what it was
2 about because I knew what it was about. And I told her I 3 wasn't interested in signing it. 4 But what I can say about the evidence on the 5 fraud is that sometimes I think if you move beyond the 6 trees and look at the forest, you can see something that's 7 going on. And we got from the State Board of Canvassers in 8 April, their statistical sample of 500 which is a random 9 sample they draw to determine how many valid signatures a 10 petition has. There were 512,000 purported signatures. 11 They took a random sample of 500. 12 When we looked at those, we found that one-fourth 13 of the signatures in support of this petition whose purpose 14 is to abolish affirmative action, one-fourth came from 15 black majority cities. 76,000 from the City of Detroit, 16 20,000 from the City of Flint, another 25- to 30,000 from 17 Inkster, Highland Park, Benton Harbor, Saginaw, Southfield, 18 Oak Park, Mt. Morris. In other words, somehow one-fourth 19 of the people who wanted to -- supposedly want to abolish 20 affirmative action come from cities where almost everybody 21 is black. 22 And then we got Mr. Mark Grebner who people may 23 know runs a business in Lansing in which he -- every 24 petition which is filed, he has the names of the 25 signatories entered by computer and then he sells them to Page 61
1 political candidates. So that, for example, if you want to
2 run for representative and you want to know who signed 3 petitions against abortion or for abortion, he'll sell you 4 that portion of the list. And he entered about 300,000 of 5 that 512,000 on this petition. And he stopped doing it 6 because he found that it was a waste of time because there 7 was no relation between the names and who actually 8 supported or opposed affirmative action. 9 But with that 300,000 which he provided to us, we 10 have lists of the names of the people who signed this 11 petition. Not a complete list because as I say, he 12 stopped. And I, for example, live in the City of Detroit 13 in zip code 48221 which you had a witness talk to you at 14 the last hearing, and I looked through 46 single-spaced 15 Pages with three columns of names on each page of people 16 who purportedly signed this. And this is my neighborhood, 17 and I know these streets. And, frankly, with the exception 18 of a very few people including myself and a few others, 19 there's nobody white who's lived on those streets in 20 20 years. 21 We have in our office -- and I should have 22 brought them today -- a stack of pages filled with names 23 and addresses of people who live in neighborhoods which are 24 95, 98 percent black where entire families have signed this 25 petition. And I think any of us from Detroit or from Flint Page 62
1 know that in the overwhelming majority of the population of
2 those cities, upwards of 90 percent, support affirmative 3 action. 4 And how is it that they got 76,000 people in 5 Detroit to sign this petition or 20,000 people in the City 6 of Flint? And I think you've heard the testimony. They 7 hired people to go out, some of whom I think were confused 8 because if you read that petition -- we've had judges who 9 read that petition who don't know what it means. And, you 10 know, I step back from it and I say, I know what it means. 11 That's why I told the person I didn't want to sign it. But 12 if I step back from it and read it, I say, well, you know 13 I'd sign everything on this page except for three words. 14 And I happen to know -- and we went to the Supreme Court on 15 this case. So I happen to know to look for those three 16 words. 17 But I think there were certainly circulators who 18 were confused. There were other circulators who knew 19 exactly what they were doing. And Ms. Miller actually got 20 an affidavit from one of them from Detroit, which I think 21 has been submitted to you where he said, "Of course I told 22 everybody it was for affirmative action because I was 23 getting $1 a signature." I mean, there were people who 24 literally sold their souls to do it. And then there were 25 people in-between who did that. Page 63
1 Now, let me say I think when -- the bottom line
2 of this is the whole purpose of getting signatures on a 3 petition is that nothing is supposed to go on the ballot 4 unless there's a substantial majority or minority of 5 citizens, ten percent of those who voted for governor, who 6 support that, who want it on the ballot. And here we have 7 a petition where one-fourth of the signatures on it, I 8 think, prima fascia where obtained by fraud, 9 misrepresentation, disinformation, et cetera. 10 And it's not simply there. We know that in the 11 suburbs too -- we've not been able to research that as 12 fully. But there people were told, "Would you like to sign 13 something for civil rights, something against 14 discrimination?" And lots and lots of people signed this. 15 This showing of interest is worth nothing. This was 16 procured by fraud. It was procured by deception. It was 17 procured by money. And I think if you step -- the examples 18 I think simply prove what's obvious, that they didn't get 19 76,000 people in Detroit and 20,000 people in Flint who 20 want to end affirmative action. There aren't 7600 people 21 in Detroit who want to end affirmative action. I doubt 22 there's 760 people. 23 So that's really what I have to say, is if you 24 look at the forest here, it's a rotten forest which they 25 have tried to turn into a showing of support for this Page 64
1 rotten petition.
2 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Washington, do you have any 3 information from your work or your personal experience 4 related to the activities of circulators with respect to, 5 as we discussed a few minutes ago, this kind of pyramid 6 structure that may or may not have existed? 7 MR. WASHINGTON: Yeah, I think from what we've 8 been able to tell -- and there have been a number of people 9 who've investigated this as Ms. Miller did, and all of them 10 have found that, you know, people would be asked to meet at 11 restaurants or at interchanges on expressways or at offices 12 that seemed to be open only one day a week from, you know, 13 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 a.m. (sic). And they would be given -- 14 the only instructions that we've been able to find that 15 they were given is, you know, make sure that the person 16 looks like they're old enough to vote, make sure you have 17 them sign all of the information. They were pretty good on 18 giving instructions as to the mechanics of this. But 19 really almost nothing -- we've never found the so-called 20 instructions they gave to people as to what it's about, nor 21 have we found anyone who was told what it was about. 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions from the 23 commission? Thank you very much. We'll hear one more 24 person, and then we will take a short break. Mr. Ganges. 25 Welcome. Page 65
1 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
2 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 3 MR. GANGES: Yes. 4 TENDAJI GANGES 5 having been called and sworn: 6 MR. GANGES: My name is Tendaji Ganges. And 7 although I work here at the University of Michigan Flint, 8 I'm not here to represent the University of Michigan Flint. 9 I'm here to represent myself as a private citizen and as an 10 activist in the Flint community. I'm affiliated with the 11 Flint Area Citizens to End Racism. 12 I just wanted to share a brief overview of the 13 work that I'm engaged with with many other individuals in 14 the City of Flint and to give you some sense of the outrage 15 and the feeling of having been deceived that I encounter 16 when I go around the community and talk with many people 17 about exactly what this ballot initiative is all about. 18 I've had the opportunity and have been invited to 19 talk with church groups, union groups, community groups, 20 various employee groups have gotten together and asked me 21 to speak with them to give them an interpretation and share 22 with them information about this ballot initiative and 23 particularly about the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, 24 what it means. I have had experience in working with 25 affirmative action for many years, formally and officially. Page 66
1 So I can speak from that experience as well.
2 What's most important about this is the outrage 3 that people hear -- that people express when they come to 4 understand exactly what this petition says, and the impact 5 that it would have upon them and their communities. But 6 perhaps what is most critical is the dream that would be 7 shattered when they realize how difficult it would be to 8 continue to pursue equality and address a full and free and 9 equal society. 10 This is not about a question for black people. 11 It's not a question for white women. It's not a question 12 for anyone except it is a question for all of us. This is 13 about how to right wrongs and how to redress wrongs. 14 People, when they come to understand that, take a very 15 different approach to having been deceived. This is not -- 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: If I might -- 17 MR. GANGES: I understand. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: -- limit your testimony, please, 19 to -- and I know you are addressing it, but more directly, 20 please, if you can, related to the activities of 21 circulators and the alleged deception. 22 MR. GANGES: When I talked with -- let me put it 23 this way: I have had occasion to talk with many church 24 groups. And in every instance where I've talked with them, 25 I've discovered individuals -- I cannot give you their Page 67
1 names. But they said they were approached, they signed a
2 petition, and they felt that they were defrauded; that 3 their signature, that their rights had been taken from them 4 because they had been defrauded to sign. That outrage is 5 what I experienced on many occasions. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: I don't mean to interrupt you. 7 But was that feeling of deception related to the conduct of 8 the circulators? 9 MR. GANGES: It was related both to the conduct 10 of the circulators as well as the deceptive language of the 11 petition. What I usually do when I make that kind of a 12 presentation is I provide all the individuals in the 13 audience with a copy of the petition. And that's the first 14 time many of them have taken the time or had the 15 opportunity to read the full language. And then we talk 16 about what the words mean. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: And when you mention conduct of 18 the circulators, what specific conduct are you talking 19 about? 20 MR. GANGES: Most of them could not remember 21 exactly how it was explained to them. They paraphrased by 22 indicating that frequently what they heard was it was in 23 support of affirmative action or against discrimination. 24 Both of those are buzz words which many of the older 25 citizens in particular are going to sign without much Page 68
1 question because they don't read as well. They're not as
2 discriminating in looking at this kind of language. The 3 fine print that goes a full side, the full length of paper, 4 is not something they're going to spend a lot of time 5 reading and deciphering. So they depend on the circulator 6 to say what is it about. It's like you're handed one of 7 those sheets of paper with the fine print for the credit 8 card, most of us don't read more than a few lines of that. 9 We want to know is this going to hurt me, and, if not, we 10 sign it. And for many people, that's what they did in this 11 instance. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions from the 13 commission? Sir, thank you very much. 14 MR. GANGES: Thank you for the opportunity. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: We'll take a five minute recess. 16 (Off the record) 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: I want to call this back into 18 session and begin by thanking everybody. I appreciate the 19 way in which we're moving through. We've moved through a 20 large number of people very thoroughly but also 21 efficiently. And so I think everybody here for helping us 22 accomplish that. There's much more to come as we proceed. 23 I'm going to call Mr. William Allen next. After Mr. Allen, 24 Mr. Edson. Okay. 25 Page 69
1 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
2 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 3 MR. ALLEN: I affirm. 4 WILLIAM ALLEN 5 having been called and sworn: 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome. 7 MR. ALLEN: Good evening. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Good evening. If you have 9 anything prepared, you can proceed. 10 MR. ALLEN: No. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. What was your experience 12 with the petition? 13 MR. ALLEN: Well, I was coming out of a grocery 14 store, kind of in a hurry. And a young man approached me 15 that seemed to be very eager to get a petition signed. And 16 he explained to me that it was something -- it would help 17 keep affirmative action as we knew it in the State of 18 Michigan. And he asked me would I sign it. I tried to 19 take a quick glance of it because I was in a hurry as I 20 stated before. And he said, "Well, it's going to help keep 21 affirmative action as, you know, we know it." And so I 22 kind of was taking his word. I did sign the petition. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: And when this individual 24 approached you, I just want to clarify, they said that this 25 will help keep affirmative action as we know it or Page 70
1 approximately that phrase?
2 MR. ALLEN: Yes; yes; that's right. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: And did you take that to mean 4 that it was a petition or an initiative that -- 5 MR. ALLEN: Support. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: -- was in support of affirmative 7 action? 8 MR. ALLEN: Oh, definitely. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: Did you ask any questions of the 10 circulator? 11 MR. ALLEN: No, I didn't. I didn't ask any 12 questions. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Did you notice the circulator, 14 observe the circulator, or hear the circulator saying 15 similar things to other people as they entered or exited 16 the location? 17 MR. ALLEN: Oh, yes; yes. Everyone he could get 18 to come over and sign this petition because he did state 19 that he was getting paid for it, and he was asking for 20 people's assistance. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you recall the specific 22 location where this occurred? Was it in front of a store? 23 MR. ALLEN: Yes, it was in front of one of our 24 local grocery stores. I believe it was Mr. B's on Stewart. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: On Stewart Street? Page 71
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