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Transcript of Hearing 1/11/2006
(PAGE) 1 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN 2 DEPARTMENT OF CIVIL RIGHTS 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 MICHIGAN CIVIL RIGHTS COMMISSION PUBLIC HEARING 6 Cadillac Place, 3054 West Grand Boulevard 7 Detroit, Michigan - Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8 9 10 BOARD MEMBERS - MARK BERNSTEIN, J.D. - Chairman MOHAMMED ABDRABBOH, J.D. - Vice-Chairman 11 MARGARET VAN HOUTEN, J.D. - Secretary ALBERT CALILLE, J.D. - Commissioner 12 KELVIN W. SCOTT, J.D. - Commissioner MATTHEW WESAW - Commissioner 13 LINDA V. PARKER, J.D. - Director RON ROBINSON, J.D. - Case Counsel 14 TAJ WILLIAMS - Timekeeper 15 16 17 18 Recorded by - NETWORK REPORTING CORPORATION Rachel Sunde, CER 6538
2 1 2 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S 3 Ms. Ruthie Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9 Ms. Turqois Wise-King. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 4 Ms. Bernita King . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 Ms. Allison Kranz. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 5 Mr. John Riehl . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 Mr. Michael Mulholland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 6 Mr. Ken Gray . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 Mr. Kelvin Jackson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 7 Mr. Mark Bryant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 Mr. Lawrence Fears . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 8 Ms. Emily Kunze. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 Ms. Martha Cuneo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 9 Ms. Shanta Driver. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 Ms. Felicia Skinner-Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62 10 Mr. David Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63 Mr. Wayne Bernard. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70 11 Mr. Sammy Williams . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71 Ms. Kathryn Blake. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 80 12 Mr. Eric Mays. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82 Mr. Louis Jones. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 86 13 Ms. Courtney Morrison. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 89 Mr. Sean Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 93 14 Mr. Hester Wheeler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 96 Mr. Korey Hall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98 15 Ms. Heather Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100 Ms. La Quay Johnson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .103 16 Ms. Mari Cruz-Lopez. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104 Ms. Shanae Tatum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .107 17 18 E X H I B I T I N D E X 19 PAGE 20 Exhibit 1 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 21 (26 Affidavits from John Riehl) Exhibit 2 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 22 (13 Affidavits from Emily Kunze) Exhibit 3 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62 23 (179 Affidavits from Shanta Driver) Exhibit 4 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 89 24 (Louis Jones e-mail of 7-13-04) Exhibit 5 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110 25 (Jennifer Gratz letter to MCRC)
3 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:05 p.m. 3 MS. PARKER: My name is Linda Parker, and I am 4 the Director of the Michigan Department of Civil Rights. 5 The public hearing that is being held tonight is being 6 convened by the Michigan Civil Rights Commission. The 7 Civil Rights Commission is an eight member, non-partisan 8 public body that is charged with the protection of civil 9 rights of the people of the State of Michigan. 10 We are unique here in Michigan in that our Civil 11 Rights Commission, this commission right here, derives its 12 power from the Michigan Constitution rather than by a 13 simple statute or law in the state. Unlike a statute which 14 is the product of the legislature, the Constitution is the 15 direct act of the people. And so in 1962, the people of 16 Michigan spoke and they spoke through their vote. And they 17 made it very clear that the protection of civil rights was 18 of such paramount importance that the duty and obligation 19 to protect those rights would be enshrined in and empowered 20 by the State Constitution. 21 Article V, Section 29 of the State Constitution 22 requires the commission to secure the equal protection of 23 the people's civil rights and to investigate alleged 24 discrimination against any person in the enjoyment of such 25 civil rights. It is with this Constitutional authority
4
1 that this hearing will proceed. I turn over the 2 proceedings to Commissioner Mark Bernstein, Commission 3 Chair. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: I want to call this special 5 hearing of the Michigan Civil Rights Commission to order. 6 My name is Mark Bernstein. I'm an attorney from Ann Arbor, 7 Michigan. I'm the chair of the Michigan Civil Rights 8 Commission. And I want to welcome everyone to these 9 extraordinarily important proceedings this evening. 10 This hearing is about really two things when we 11 get down to it. One is about conduct. We are talking 12 tonight about allegations of voter fraud by a group working 13 to ban affirmative action in Michigan. These are 14 allegations that involve the conduct of circulators, not 15 the content of the ballot proposal, and how these 16 signatures were gathered to obtain a place on the November 17 ballot. 18 Secondly, it is about being responsive to 19 Michigan citizens. It's about listening to these 20 profoundly important and serious allegations. I believe 21 that to ignore these allegations would be simply to ignore 22 the obligations and responsibilities and the duties of this 23 commission. 24 Tonight we are simply doing our job. Let's be 25 clear about what we're talking about tonight. We're
5 1 talking about the civil rights of Michigan voters. And 2 there is nothing to me, and I would submit to this 3 commission, that is more central or more sacred to the 4 mission of this commission than an individual's voting 5 rights period. 6 Today we live in a time I believe of increasing 7 cynicism about issues of public interest. I believe that 8 this cynicism, this distrust, flows less from the content 9 of public policy but more from the conduct of public 10 policymakers or those who attempt to influence public 11 policy. Voters may decide the fate of affirmative action 12 on the November ballot. And I believe that we owe it to 13 ourselves and to future generations, many of whom are 14 represented in this room who will be affected by that, who 15 will live with the impact of these decisions. And we have 16 to treat this issue and each other in a way that is honest, 17 that is fair, and that is responsible. 18 And so I call the special hearing to order. 19 I'll 20 ask members of our commission to introduce themselves. 21 I'll then go over some of the ground rules of this evening, 22 and then we'll call our witnesses. So why don't we just 23 begin from my right with Commissioner Matt Wesaw. 24 MR. WESAW: Thank you for introducing me. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: I'm trying to save time. You 26 know we're moving along here.
6 1 MR. WESAW: Commissioner Matt Wesaw out of Holt. 2 MR. SCOTT: Commissioner Kelvin Scott. 3 MS. VAN HOUTEN: Commissioner Margaret Van 4 Houten, Dearborn Heights. 5 MR. ABDRABBOH: Commissioner Mohammed Abdrabboh, 6 Dearborn, Michigan. 7 MR. CALILLE: Commissioner Al Calille. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Great. Thank you. We 9 are 10 holding this hearing -- I want to just go over three very 11 important housekeeping administrative items. We're holding 12 this hearing for one purpose, and it's to hear testimony on 13 alleged voter fraud. Therefore, this commission will not 14 be addressing other individual civil right complaints. The 15 Civil Rights Commission covers a very broad spectrum of 16 civil rights issues. We will not be addressing those 17 issues this evening, but I do encourage anybody who is here 18 to talk about those issues to go to the service center 19 tomorrow. From Monday to Friday, it's open from 8:30 to 20 5:00. It's on the third floor of this building. And there 21 are service centers across the state. 22 Secondly, this hearing has to conclude at around 23 8:30. The public space of this facility closes at around 24 that time. And so we're going to do everything possible to 25 move through this quickly and efficiently. Speakers are 26 going to be called to the table in front of me. And we
7 1 will only recognize those who are on the witness list or 2 who have submitted a speaker request form. Anyone wishing 3 to give testimony needs to fill out and complete a speaker 4 request form. There are representatives of the Michigan 5 Department of Civil Rights who are circulating, and you can 6 find one of them. If they could just raise their hand, and 7 if -- anybody from the Department of Civil Rights. You can 8 find them. They'd be happy to take your form, and they'll 9 make sure that we get it up here. And we'll do everything 10 we possibly can to make sure that your voice is heard this 11 evening. 12 And the theme to this evening, as I said, is 13 about listening and it's about conduct. And it's about how 14 we discuss issues of consequence in this state. So we need 15 to respect each other in this room, whether or not you 16 agree or disagree with those opinions. That's what this 17 meeting in many ways is all about. And so I urge everybody 18 and I remind them that the person sitting at the witness 19 stand in front of us or up at this table have the floor. 20 And nobody else will be recognized. So please show respect 21 for people who are testifying this evening. 22 Each speaker will be given five minutes to 23 provide their testimony. Members of the commission are 24 free to ask questions if they wish. Taj Williams, who is 25 sitting to my right, probably has the most difficult job in
8 1 the room this evening. He's our official timekeeper, and 2 he will be giving people a warning when they're about a 3 minute away from the end of their five minutes. So please 4 keep an eye on him. And we will also do our best to try to 5 keep your comments to a minimum; the minimum amount of time 6 being five minutes at the maximum. 7 So here's how this hearing is going to proceed. 8 We will call witnesses at the beginning up until about 8:00 9 o'clock or a little bit after 8:00 o'clock. And all these 10 individuals on the witness list are individuals who have 11 either signed a petition, were approached to sign a 12 petition, or were involved in the petition process as a 13 circulator. We will then end going through the witness 14 list no matter how far down we are at about 8:00. And at 15 that time we will open this meeting to a public comment 16 period which we're required to do under the Open Meetings 17 Act, but also because we do want to hear your voices on 18 this. And that will run until the conclusion of this 19 hearing. If we can't get to everybody this evening -- and 20 I have a suspicion we probably will not be able to get to 21 everybody this evening. There are a large number of people 22 here -- we will make every effort to hear your voice in 23 another hearing, at another venue, in some other way. So I 24 just want people to know that and to hear that. 25 So we will begin -- one other reminder. I want
9 1 to ask everybody, if possible, to turn off their cell 2 phones. I was just reminded of that. If you could check 3 your cell phones and put them on vibrate at a minimum? So 4 I'm now going to call our first witness, Ruthie Stevenson. 5 Ruthie, would you please come to the witness table? And 6 every one of our witnesses are going to be sworn. And 7 Ruthie, if you could remain standing while our court 8 reporter swears you in, please? 9 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 10 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 11 MS. STEVENSON: I affirm. 12 RUTHIE STEVENSON 13 having been called and sworn: 14 MS. STEVENSON: First of all, speaking real 15 quickly, I'd like to commend this body, the Michigan Civil 16 Rights Commission, for allowing us as citizens, as Paul 17 Harvey would say, to have a venue for the rest of the story 18 about the signatures that were garnered by the MCRI and in 19 using lies, deceptions, and paper practices on signatures. 20 My name is Ruthie Stevenson. I'm president of 21 the Macomb County branch of the NAACP. To set the tone for 22 this evening, I will be reading a signed affidavit by Mr. 23 Noah Felix, who is an 86-year-old resident of the City of 24 Mount Clemens as well as a community activist. 25 "My name is Noah Felix. I reside at 83 26 Robertson
10 1 Street in the City of Mount Clemens. I am an -- I'm 2 86-years-old and a long-time supporter of the NAACP. 3 One morning during the summer of 2004, I encountered a 4 black man who appeared to be in his early 30's at the 5 post office on Main Street in Mount Clemens. He asked 6 me to sign a petition for a ballot initiative. He 7 said it would make affirmative action better, and he 8 said that the president of the NAACP backed it. I 9 personally know Ruthie Stevenson, the president of the 10 Macomb County NAACP, and so I asked him who the 11 president was. He said her name was Ruthie Stevenson. 12 I did not let anything get me mad, but I did not like 13 what he said. I did not like him using the name NAACP 14 and Ruthie Stevenson's name to lie to people. I told 15 him right to his face that I did not believe him. I 16 told him that I knew Ruthie Stevenson and talked to 17 her regularly. I refused to sign the petition. And 18 for about 20 minutes after that, I stood there next to 19 him. This man asked more people to sign, and he told 20 each one that the president of the NAACP supported it. 21 I told the people I would not sign it and that I knew 22 Ruthie Stevenson personally and she did not support it 23 and the NAACP did not support it. Most people 24 listened to what I said, but also about five people 25 signed it."
11 1 That was a statement that was given to me by Mr. 2 Felix. Also -- let me get this right. I was also 3 approached in summer of 2004 as well outside the Mount 4 Clemens Post Office. I happened to be going in, and I was 5 approached by this Caucasian male. And he asked me would I 6 like to sign a petition. And I said, you know, "In 7 reference to what?" And he said, "To make civil rights 8 fair for everybody." And, you know, I'm just asking 9 questions because I knew what it was about. And he stated 10 it was about affirmative action. And he then stated that 11 Ruthie Stevenson, president of the Macomb County branch of 12 the NAACP, was in agreement with it. And I did one of 13 those, ha, laughs, you understand. 14 I started to dig in my purse, and as I was 15 digging in my purse, he said that he had a pen. And I 16 said, no, it's not about a pen, and I handed him my card. 17 And he then looked at the card and I said, "I'm Ruthie 18 Stevenson, and I'm not in support of this divisive 19 initiative." And at that point, he turned and walked away 20 and I shouted at him, "Stop using my name to garner 21 signatures," and I went on into the post office. 22 I was appalled that he so blatantly used the 23 name 24 of the NAACP and mine also to lie to people to get 25 signatures. Some weeks later, Mr. Felix called me to tell 26 me the same thing had also happened to him. If we sit and
12 1 don't speak out against these kinds of deceptions 2 perpetuated on the citizens of this state by petitioners of 3 this ballot, we deserve what we get. I hold our Secretary 4 of State, Ms. Terri Lynn Land, who is in charge of 5 elections processes and procedures and Attorney General 6 responsible for sitting and not doing anything in this 7 situation. If it had been any other ballot proposal or 8 initiative, it would have been investigated. 9 We, the NAACP and concerned citizens of this 10 state of every hue and nationality, will work aggressively 11 to defeat this proposal. And, again, I commend this body 12 for allowing us as citizens to have a public venue to state 13 so everybody can understand and know the depths and lengths 14 that was went to to get signatures in a deceptive manner 15 from citizens in this state. Thank you so much. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Stevenson, I just have a few 17 quick questions. Do you recall the time and day of your -- 18 when the circulator approached you? 19 MS. STEVENSON: The exact day -- actually, you 20 know, how I put it -- because we were working on the 21 election at that time, and it had went through my mind. I 22 had read Mr. Morelli's bio because he was running for 23 something in Clinton Township. He was over the affirmative 24 action piece. So that was after the primary, and I know it 25 was in the month of August. But to tell you the exact
13 1 day -- and I know it was in the afternoon. 2 MR. BERNSTEIN: And the location? 3 MS. STEVENSON: Mount Clemens Post Office. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. If there's no other 5 questions, we'll call the next witness. Thank you very 6 much, Mrs. Stevenson. The next witness on our witness list 7 is Kathryn Blake and her daughter Yvette Bobo. Are they 8 present? 9 MS. HEATHER MILLER: Yeah, I just talked to her. 10 There's a whole group of Flint coming down, and Kathryn is 11 the vice-president of the NAACP. They're on their way. 12 They're about 20 minutes away. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Okay. Thank you very 14 much. The next person I have on my list is Turqois King 15 and Bernita King. Are they present? 16 AUDIENCE: Yeah. They're right here. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Would you please come 18 forward? And while she's coming forward, I also want to 19 say something I should have said at the top and I want to 20 make very clear that everybody hears this. We want to 21 emphasize that this is an open and balanced hearing. It is 22 our intention and it's our obligation to hear every voice 23 on this issue. And so we invite representatives from the 24 Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, if they're present, to 25 participate in this hearing. And if there's anyone who
14 1 wishes to speak on behalf of the MCRI, please find one of 2 our department representatives anywhere in this room -- 3 again, they raised their hand before. I'd like them to 4 raise their hands again -- who will make sure that you are 5 afforded an opportunity to testify this evening or at any 6 other time if we have other hearings. 7 Our next speaker -- the next individual who we 8 plan to bring before us for testimony is Allison Kranz. If 9 she's available or if she's here if she could just be ready 10 to go next? Okay. So if you could please state your name 11 and your -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 12 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 13 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 14 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: Yes. 15 MS. BERNITA KING: I do. 16 MR. BERSTEIN: If you could please both state 17 your names? 18 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: Good evening. My name 19 is 20 Turqois Wise-King. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Welcome. 22 MS. BERNITA KING: Good evening. My name is 23 Bernita King. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Great. The floor is 25 yours. 26 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: Thank you.
15 1 TURQOIS WISE-KING 2 having been called and sworn: 3 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: My name is Turqois 4 Wise-King. I live at 16661 Woodingham in the City of 5 Detroit. I am a 12th grader at Mumford High School and an 6 organizer with BAMN, the coalition to defend affirmative 7 action, integration and immigrant rights and fight for 8 equality By Any Means Necessary. 9 I joined BAMN in February 2005. They came to my 10 school when I was in 11th grade, and they did a 11 presentation to my class. This was very important to me 12 because this was the first time anyone came to my class to 13 talk about affirmative action. I learned that it would 14 affect my chances into getting into a good college. I 15 always wanted to go to college to become a veterinarian, 16 and I wanted to get into Michigan State University. When I 17 found out that they used affirmative action and this would 18 affect me, I wanted to fight for it. 19 I thought it was really wrong how MCRI lied to 20 other Detroiters. If you want somebody to sign something, 21 don't lie about it; be honest about it. I was determined 22 when I heard about it, and I didn't want them to get away 23 with it. I felt it was my duty to do something and not 24 just watch this fraud get on the ballot. When I found out 25 how many people who were lied to, it really shocked me.
16 1 During a BAMN meeting, we were looking at lists 2 of people who signed the MCRI petition. And I looked at my 3 own zip code which was 48221. When I saw my mom's 4 signature, it was too shocking for words. I knew that she 5 was a strong supporter of affirmative action, and she 6 supported BAMN. She supported the cause and sold T-shirts, 7 and cooked food for the students. It shocked me and even 8 made me more determined to fight. I knew that they had 9 lied to people, but this time they did it to my mom. And 10 no one gets away with lying to my mom and using her for 11 anything. She is a great woman, and I know she would never 12 sign anything to hurt me or against me. 13 After I found out my mom signed it, I teamed up 14 with some BAMN members and we looked at the 48221 area 15 code. I found 25 people on my block who had signed it. It 16 was shocking because I got to see where MCRI actually went. 17 They had been to the Sav-On grocery store, the Dollar 18 Store, credit union, places that were near my street. So I 19 organized on my block, and I got a few people to come to 20 the hearing. We got plenty of support. Those who couldn't 21 make it said they supported BAMN and the cause as well. 22 We contacted five people. They each signed 23 affidavits. When they saw their names on the petition, 24 their faces were lit with horror. And before I could 25 finish what I had to say, they would say, "Oh, my God. I
17 1 would never ever sign anything against affirmative action," 2 because of my son, or my daughter, or my grandson, niece or 3 nephew. "I want them to prosper and get a good education. 4 I'm going to fight on your side. Give me an affidavit and 5 I'll see you on the 11th and I will testify." 6 This is about the signatures and about the 7 fraud. 8 But even more, it's about the young people like myself. 9 When I talk about this to people in my classroom at my 10 school, they are angry, and they say things like, "Nobody 11 is going to keep me out of college. Nobody is going to 12 stop me from achieving my goals." 13 My mom always told me that she doesn't want me 14 to 15 work in a factory and she doesn't want me to work in fast 16 food. She always told me to get a good education. I 17 already work hard enough because I'm black. And we are a 18 minority, you have to work twice as hard. I think this is 19 total voter fraud. What makes MCRI think they can come -- 20 what makes MCRI think they can come into the City of 21 Detroit where it's mostly black and get thousands and 22 thousands of signatures and think they can get away with 23 it? 24 I want you, the commission, to do an 25 investigation because in the City of Detroit the word is 26 getting around and people are talking about it. And if you
19 1 bigger. And you know it is the right thing to do, and you 2 must investigate. Thank you. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Bernita, please. 4 BERNITA KING 5 having been called and sworn: 6 MS. BERNITA KING: My name is Bernita King. I 7 reside at 16661 Woodingham in Detroit, Michigan 48221. 8 About three weeks ago my daughter Turqois, a BAMN 9 organizer, informed me that my name was on the MCRI 10 petition. I was livid because there's no way that I would 11 affiliate myself with anything against affirmative action. 12 I am for affirmative action and so is my daughter. In 13 fact, I myself have sold BAMN T-shirts to support the 14 cause. 15 As a retired UAW Local 262 member from American 16 Axle, I have always been a strong supporter of the Civil 17 Rights Act. I grew up in Mississippi, and I have seen a 18 lot of discrimination. My daughter is my life. I would 19 never, never do anything to insult the struggle and the 20 fight that has been passed on from one generation to 21 another. I stand behind my daughter, and I stand behind 22 the cause of affirmative action and equal opportunity. If 23 we don't stand up for something, we will fall for anything. 24 I was deceived to believe that the petition was 25 for affirmative action, not against it. As parents of
20 1 Turqois, Thomas Wise and myself, we are proud of her 2 accomplishments and her future with BAMN and the civil 3 rights movement. 4 Ward Connerly is not worthy to walk in the shoes 5 of a black person. Our people have struggled for 400 years 6 against oppression and brutality. We have given our blood, 7 our sweat, our tears, and our lives so that people like 8 Ward Connerly can be what he is today. It saddens me in 9 2006 the fight against the white man is really against a 10 group that has manipulated Ward Connerly for greed and love 11 of money and betrayed his own people. 12 I am still furious about the audacity of the 13 situation. My name is on the petition -- excuse me. My 14 name is on the petition to ban every opportunity we fought 15 for. I'm not wealthy, and affirmative action could benefit 16 my daughter. God forbid they remove it. I demand my name 17 be removed from this petition and that this petition should 18 never see the light of day or a ballot. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much for your 20 testimony. If there's anybody on the commission that has 21 any questions? I'd like to just remind people to please 22 refrain from clapping or making any noise during this 23 proceeding. This is an important and a very sober 24 proceeding. We have to maintain order here. It's very 25 important. But thank you very much for your testimony.
21 1 Are there any -- 2 MR. CALILLE: Mr. Chairman, I just had a 3 question. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Please. 5 MR. CALILLE: I wasn't clear from your 6 testimony. 7 Do you recall signing the petition or not signing it? 8 MS. BERNITA KING: Well, no, I don't. 9 MR. CALILLE: You don't recall if you signed it 10 or not? 11 MS. BERNITA KING: No, I don't. But my name was 12 on the list. 13 MR. CALILLE: I'm just trying to clarify the 14 nature of the fraud. Are you saying that you absolutely 15 didn't sign it and somebody forged your signature, or are 16 you saying you didn't recall signing it? Or are you saying 17 you may have signed it but under false pretenses? 18 MS. BERNITA KING: I never affiliated myself 19 with 20 the petition; never. And since my name is on the list, I 21 still don't affiliate myself with that petition. 22 MR. SCOTT: Did you or someone else see your 23 signature on a petition? 24 MS. BERNITA KING: My daughter. 25 MR. SCOTT: Did she recognize that as being your 26 signature? Is the daughter --
23 1 MR. SCOTT: It's the daughter that's with you 2 right here? 3 MS. BERNITA KING: This is my daughter. 4 MR. SCOTT: Did you recognize that as your mom's 5 signature? 6 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: I saw my mother's name 7 on 8 a list of zip codes. She says that she doesn't recall that 9 she signed this petition. So that means there had to be 10 some kind of fraud that someone probably used her name. 11 MR. SCOTT: Did you see her signature on the 12 petition? 13 MS. TURQOIS WISE-KING: No, I didn't. 14 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. 16 MS. BERNITA KING: Okay. Thank you. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Allison Kranz, are you present? 18 John Riehl will be the next person on the witness list if 19 you could just be ready to go. Thank you. Allison, if you 20 could remain standing. Thank you. 21 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 22 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 23 MS. KRANZ: I do. 24 ALLISON KRANZ 25 having been called and sworn: 26 MS. KRANZ: Good evening. My name is Allison
24 1 Kranz. I'm from West Bloomfield, Michigan. I'm a recent 2 graduate of Grand Valley State University, so for the last 3 couple years I've been in Grand Rapids, Michigan. 4 I wanted to talk about my experiences with the 5 canvasser from the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative. This 6 event took place on September 12th, 2004, in Grand Rapids, 7 Michigan outside of Calder Plaza which is in downtown Grand 8 Rapids. I know that it happened on this date because this 9 was the last day of the Hispanic festival that annually 10 happens in Grand Rapids and I attended with some friends. 11 A woman right outside the festival, a Hispanic 12 woman, stopped me and asked me if I wanted to end racism 13 and if I cared about civil rights. I said, "Absolutely," 14 and I stopped. She was collecting signatures, a petition, 15 so she could have this referendum on the ballot. The name 16 of the initiative sounded familiar to me, and I had a very 17 basic understanding of it. I asked her if this was the 18 same initiative that could impact affirmative action, and 19 she said no, that was something else. And, again, this 20 didn't really sound right to me because I thought I had a 21 basic understanding of what was going on. 22 And so I asked her if I could see her pad of 23 signatures. I asked her if I could see her pad of 24 signatures to read the statement on the top. Again, it 25 looked basically familiar to me. And I said, "Are you
25 1 sure?" And she said, "No, that's something different." In 2 the meantime, two other people had come out of the festival 3 and she asked the same question to them; you know, do they 4 want to stop racism; do they believe in civil rights. They 5 said yes. 6 And she explained to them what she explained to 7 me which was that, if this was passed, it would just be a 8 basic -- it would reaffirm the practices that were already 9 continuing on in the state in terms of -- I'm sorry. What 10 would happen was that this initiative would ban all types 11 of discrimination against minorities. So these two people 12 signed the petition. And again I asked the canvasser, "Are 13 you sure this has nothing to do with affirmative action?" 14 And again she told me I was mistaken. 15 I thought perhaps we had different 16 understandings 17 of what affirmative action was. And so I said, "Are you 18 familiar with the U of M case that had to do with race and 19 point systems?" She said yes, she was. I said, "So if 20 this referendum had already passed -- it was already in the 21 State Constitution at this time -- how would it have 22 affected that case?" She said that case would have never 23 happened because this referendum would reinforce the 24 state's current practice of college admissions, hiring, and 25 overall stop the discrimination against minorities.
27 1 defensive, and I questioned her if she was absolutely sure 2 about everything she was telling me. Once again, she 3 confirmed what she had previously told me and the two other 4 people who are now listening to our conversation. I told 5 her that I could be mistaken but what she was saying did 6 not match what I understood of this initiative. I said the 7 media had even called it controversial. 8 All of us; the canvasser and the two people from 9 the festival and myself; were about to part when the people 10 said that they wanted their names taken off the signature 11 pad. I also said that I would not sign because what she 12 said seemed a little too simple to me. The woman quickly 13 turned away and she walked away. And as the two people 14 said, "No, hang on, I want to take off my signature. 15 Stop," she continued to even walk faster down the street. 16 I know for a fact that those two signatures 17 should not have been on that pad, and I know for a fact 18 that they were probably counted. I personally believe that 19 any group or person has any right -- has whatever right to 20 bring forward anything that they choose if they do it 21 legally and if they follow the rules. I know for a fact 22 this group did not follow all the rules because this one 23 woman lied to me straightforward. I even went so far -- 24 and I suggested that the woman that night go and research 25 in case she had been lied to. That night I did my own
28 1 research, and I can honestly say that 100 percent I was 2 lied to about the purpose of this initiative. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Let me just clarify 4 one of the things that you said. 5 MS. KRANZ: Sure; sure. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: You indicated that the 7 circulator 8 said that this would not impact affirmative action; is that 9 correct? 10 MS. KRANZ: Correct. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: And did you ask any other 12 questions specific to affirmative action, whether or not 13 this would overturn affirmative action, if this was in 14 favor of affirmative action, if this was going to ban 15 affirmative action? 16 MS. KRANZ: I asked how it would affect any type 17 of affirmative action in general, how it would affect the 18 state's current practices of affirmative action. And she 19 said I was thinking of a different initiative, I was 20 thinking of a different referendum. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. 22 MR. CALILLE: Just one question. Did you ask 23 the 24 canvasser what they meant by affirmative action when they 25 made that statement? 26 MS. KRANZ: I did make the comment, "Maybe you
30 1 action." That's when I brought up the U of M case. 2 MR. SCOTT: Did you ever actually read any of 3 the 4 language on the petition? 5 MS. KRANZ: I read the above statement that I 6 believe would be on the ballot this fall if it was taken. 7 That was on the top of the petition. 8 MR. CALILLE: I have one follow up. Do you 9 recall if that same statement about affirmative action was 10 made to the two individuals who did sign the petition? 11 MS. KRANZ: They were there when the comment was 12 made. I'm not sure if they were paying attention or not. 13 Right after -- when I first asked, "Does this have anything 14 to do with affirmative action," I asked to see the pad. 15 When I was reading the pad, that's when she said, you know, 16 "Do you believe in civil rights? Do you want to stop 17 racism?" They said, "Yes." They were automatically going 18 to sign it, and they did automatically sign it. But they 19 stayed there as we finished our conversation. 20 MS. VAN HOUTEN: Did you happen to get the names 21 of the two people who signed it or the person who was 22 circulating? 23 MS. KRANZ: No, I didn't. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: And do you recall the date? 25 MS. KRANZ: It was September 12th, 2004. 26 MR. BERNSTEIN: Are there any other questions?
31 1 Thank you. 2 MS. KRANZ: Thank you. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. John Riehl. And with John 4 Riehl -- I neglected to mention this -- I don't know if Mr. 5 Mulholland, Michael Mulholland, Mr. Lawrence Fears, Lynn 6 White will be available. If you could all please remain 7 standing while we swear you in please? 8 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 9 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 10 MR. RIEHL: Yes. 11 MR. MULHOLLAND: Yes. 12 MR. GRAY: Yes. 13 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 14 MR. BRYANT: Yes. 15 MR. FEARS: Yes. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: And if I could get each of your 17 names, please? 18 MR. RIEHL: My name is John Riehl. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: John, thank you. 20 MR. MULHOLLAND: My name is Michael Mulholland. 21 MR. JACKSON: Kelvin Jackson. 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: I'm sorry. Could you say that 23 again? 24 MR. JACKSON: Kelvin Jackson. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you, Kelvin.
32 1 MR. BRYANT: Mark Bryant. 2 MR. FEARS: Lawrence Fears. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Actually this microphone here on 4 the table is the functioning microphone. That's a press 5 microphone, so it's not amplifying. 6 MR. GRAY: My name is Ken Gray. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Welcome Ken. Anybody else? 8 Okay. Thank you. If you could please proceed? 9 JOHN RIEHL 10 having been called and sworn: 11 MR. RIEHL: Thank you, Commissioner. My name is 12 John Riehl, president of AFSCME Local 207 Detroit. We're 13 the workers who fix your water mains when they break and 14 supply your water service and your sewage treatment 15 service. We have about 1100 members in our union. 16 We started last week when we learned, by doing a 17 database analysis between our membership list and the BAMN 18 research on those people who signed the MRCI fraudulent 19 petition, that approximately our estimate was around 125 of 20 our members' names and addresses matched the MCRI 21 petitions. 22 We're very angry about this. We're very angry 23 about the fraud, and we decided to do something about it. 24 We started investigating, and we started talking to our 25 members. I went around and spoke to our members on this
33 1 list. Of course, we're very busy in negotiating contracts 2 and trying to defend people's jobs, but we were able to 3 find some time to do this. I collected over the last -- me 4 and my other union officers collected over the last week 27 5 affidavits which we have turned into the commission 6 already. I'll read one, and we'll move forward from there. 7 Affidavit of Gary O. Wesson. 8 "My name is Gary O. Wesson. I reside at 1450 9 Ferry Park in the City of Detroit. On 1-5-06 I was 10 contacted by John Riehl, president of my union AFSCME 11 Local 207, informing me my signature appears on a 12 state ballot initiative entitled Michigan Civil Rights 13 Initiative whose aim is to eliminate affirmative 14 action programs in the State of Michigan. I am a firm 15 supporter of affirmative action and equal opportunity 16 and would never knowingly sign a petition to end 17 affirmative action. The only way I would have signed 18 such a petition, if the petition circulator 19 misrepresented it to me. I have not seen a copy of 20 the petition, so I cannot determine whether my 21 signature is on it. I hereby request my signature be 22 removed by -- from the MCRI petition. Gary Wesson, 23 1506." 24 I've got a stack and the committee has got them 25 too. We're very upset with this. First, in many ways it's
34 1 identify theft the way they've been treating people's names 2 and what they believe as a mere political game to be 3 playing on our citizens of Michigan. We in Detroit have 4 lost the residency rule so affirmative action rules in our 5 union contract are very, very important. And in the future 6 when Detroit hires more workers, we will have to use those 7 affirmative action rules to keep black Detroiters in the 8 payroll instead of like what we saw with the fire 9 department recently. They hired 32 young; all men, all 10 white except for one nonblack Detroiter, no Detroiters, and 11 one Asian person. No black people from Detroit got hired. 12 That's the kinds of problems we have. 13 We want to remind the commission that Detroiters 14 are very concerned about their voting rights. Many of our 15 members participated in the Vote No on E campaign getting 16 the election of school board members back in Detroit's 17 hands and we're very proud of that. And we marched 18 together as a union in Cincinnati on affirmative action 19 twice, April 1st, 2003, in Washington; put a lot of effort, 20 took our vacation time to run out to Washington to make our 21 point. And we fortunately won that battle. 22 If you cut off the rights and the right to 23 redress for citizens, conflict will happen; chaos can 24 happen; riots can happen; strikes can happen. 25 We think the committee has a very clear
35 1 responsibility to have a stay put on by the State Supreme 2 Court to stop this ballot proposition until you guys do 3 your investigation. You have subpoena power. You can find 4 the facts to stop Mr. Drolet's claims that Detroiters are 5 nothing but liars. Remember, he's the person that's trying 6 to take over our water department. There's a double-edged 7 sword here. You can expose the racism behind Ward 8 Connerly. You can make a difference, and I would request 9 that you do that. And you'll hear testimony from my fellow 10 union brothers on this issue. Thank you. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. 12 MICHAEL MULHOLLAND 13 having been called and sworn: 14 MR. MULHOLLAND: Again, my name is Michael 15 Mulholland. I'm the secretary/treasurer of our local, 16 Local 207. How dare anybody call 40,000 Detroiters, or at 17 least those who have had a chance to see that their name is 18 on these lists, liars or imply that they're too stupid to 19 read. I was lied to. 20 I was in -- it was December 27th, 2004. I was 21 in 22 Eastland Mall in Harper Woods. And a man came up to me and 23 tried to get me to sign a petition, and I was naturally on 24 this like a radar screen. And I said, "What is that?" 25 "It's for affirmative action," he said. I looked at it and 26 said, "No, it's not." And then before I started something
36 1 with him, I left. So I know from my own personal 2 experience that people are being lied to out there. 3 If this was a tax measure, if I was circulating 4 something saying I want to raise the taxes and later found 5 out -- people found out that the people that were 6 circulating with me lied and said, "Oh, no, it's to lower 7 taxes," you know this would never end up on the ballot. 8 This is only ending up on the ballot because of the 9 disregard and disrespect for black people in this country. 10 Local 207 members have fought hard for 11 affirmative action. The current slate of leaders of 207 12 were elected twice with a central tenant of our program, 13 the fight for affirmative action. Members marched with bad 14 knees down through cold, rainy weather in Cincinnati twice. 15 We gathered money from our own pockets, donated some from 16 our treasury, went down to Washington in 2003 to march, 17 staying up all night on the buses because we thought it's 18 important. 19 Some people are under the illusion that 20 Detroiters are just victims, passive victims. Do not 21 believe that. If somebody is telling you that there will 22 be no consequences for this and that this was something 23 that, okay, it's a bad thing but it will pass, it will not 24 pass. It may theoretically pass in the -- on the ballot, 25 but it will not pass with the people of Detroit. We will
37 1 organize. We will fight. We won't let it happen and stay 2 happening. We proved that when they took our school board 3 from us. We didn't let up for five years until we got it 4 back. 5 This commission has a moral and political-legal 6 responsibility to act now. If they do, they will secure 7 their place in history. Each and every one of you will 8 have to make up your mind what your place in history is 9 going to be. If you don't act or if you pretend to act or 10 if you act in a way that's sure to result in failure, that 11 also will be a legacy. One last thing, the civil rights 12 movement fought hard for gains such as affirmative action. 13 But finally, truthfully, it took 1967 for the country to 14 wake up and institute and really put in place some 15 affirmative action. And I hope that this commission does 16 not wait for another 1967 to stand up for what is right. 17 Thank you. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. What I'd like to do 19 is, I'd like to just remind everybody providing testimony 20 to please restrict your comments specifically to the issue 21 of whether or not you were misled by a circulator, if you 22 are a circulator, related to the specific issue of an 23 allegation of voter fraud. We need to get through a lot of 24 people this evening and that would help us do that. Thank 25 you very much. Also, if anybody on the commission has
38 1 questions for any of these gentlemen, we will -- please 2 reserve those until they complete as a group their 3 statement and then we'll allow for questions. Go ahead, 4 sir. 5 MR. GRAY: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Could you please state your name 7 one more time? 8 KEN GRAY 9 having been called and sworn: 10 MR. GRAY: Yes. My name is Ken Gray. John 11 Riehl 12 contacted me recently about the faulty signatures that were 13 placed on this ballot. Back during the summer I ran for 14 city council in the primary. I was approached by a young 15 black man who was interested in, you know, signing my 16 petition, but he also had a petition as well. He stated 17 that this was to keep affirmative action going. And it was 18 plain and simple, yes, to sign this because, you know, I 19 come from the south and I've seen segregation and 20 prejudice. I've seen where people have had to go to the 21 back of the building to drink water, get a glass of water, 22 or drink water out of a well. This young man assured me 23 that this was a legitimate petition that he was passing 24 around, so I signed it. 25 I didn't even know until John contacted me just 26 recently that my name was on this petition for something
39 1 else other than what I thought it would be. So I'm here 2 tonight, not only with Local 207 but to represent myself 3 and say take my signature off that ballot. It was -- first 4 of all, they used the young man as a smoke screen to 5 bamboozle the majority of us that were there signing that 6 petition. Second of all, you know, who has -- who in their 7 right mind being black would sign that petition? Does 8 anybody in this room know anybody that is that crazy? 9 Now, mine is short and sweet. I just want to 10 say 11 take my name off that petition, and you guys make a 12 difference in this. You know, we've got enough crooked 13 politicians doing backhanded deals going every day. So 14 let's cut this right at the quick. You know, let's stop 15 this. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. 17 KELVIN JACKSON 18 having been called and sworn: 19 MR. JACKSON: Good evening. My name is Kelvin 20 Jackson. I work for Waste Water, Detroit, Michigan. I'm a 21 union member Local 207. I was approached by Michael 22 Mulholland last Tuesday in January about this ballot 23 proposal that I allegedly had signed back in 2004, the 24 summer of 2004. 25 I thought it was for a school millage for 26 Detroit
41 1 And I was alleged that we was trying to get more money for 2 the Detroit Public School system. And that's the only 3 reason I signed the ballot. I had no idea it was for an 4 anti-affirmative action initiative until last week. So I 5 would like the committee to take my name off the list on 6 this ballot to end affirmative action. Because me being a 7 black man living in Detroit, Michigan for 46-and-a-half 8 years, I have experienced racism myself in employment, 9 education, and just doing business with people throughout 10 Michigan. So for my grandkids who are 2, 3 -- I got 2, 5, 11 I would like to see them be able to go to the University of 12 Michigan, the U of D without having to say, "Well, no, you 13 can't go here because it's mainly for people that are white 14 only, not for people that are minorities." 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. 16 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 17 MARK BRYANT 18 having been called and sworn: 19 MR. BRYANT: How are you doing? My name is Mark 20 Bryant. I'm a senior water systems mechanic in Detroit 21 City. All right. On election day, 2005 -- all right -- I 22 was stopped by this guy coming out of the -- because I 23 wouldn't sign it going in. There was a bunch of people 24 standing outside trying to give you stuff; you know, take 25 this, and vote for this person, and whatnot. All right? I
42 1 wouldn't -- on the way out, he shoved this petition in my 2 face saying it was for affirmative action. I'm tired. I 3 had worked all day. I just want to sign this thing and 4 move on, get to the house. I signed it. I even stopped 5 three other people coming out of the election from voting. 6 "You need to sign this petition. It's for affirmative 7 action." 8 I went to see Mr. John Riehl on another matter, 9 and he tells me my name is on this petition. I was like, 10 "No, it can't be. I signed it for affirmative action." I 11 have a son. I have nieces. I have grandchildren. I want 12 them to go to college. I don't want them to work as hard 13 as I do. I want them to, you know, rise above what I'm 14 doing now. All right? They tell me I done signed this 15 petition to end affirmative action. Please, take my name 16 off this. That's all I'd like to say. Thank you. 17 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. 18 LAWRENCE FEARS 19 having been called and sworn: 20 MR. FEARS: Good evening. My name is Lawrence 21 Fears again. I work at the waste -- 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Could you please state your name 23 again? I'm sorry. 24 MR. FEARS: Lawrence Fears. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you, Lawrence.
43 1 MR. FEARS: I work at the waste water treatment 2 plant. I'm a sewage plant operator. I reside at 20441 3 Spencer, Detroit, Michigan 48234. In the summer of 2004, I 4 was going to the credit union. I work afternoons so I was 5 going to the credit union around 12:00 o'clock. I was in a 6 hurry. And when I got up there, I seen the lady with the 7 petition. I went on and told her I'd see her when I come 8 back out. I went in, took care of my business, came out, 9 and she asked me to sign a petition for affirmative action. 10 I said, "Wait a minute." I said, "Are you sure this is not 11 what Connerly is trying to put forth?" She said, "Oh, no. 12 It's not about what Connerly is doing. It's trying to keep 13 affirmative action in." I said, "Okay." I signed it. 14 And as I was signing it, I told people standing 15 around me, I said, you all better watch what you all 16 signing because you all got these snakes out here that's 17 trying to lie to you all. I didn't know I was talking to a 18 snake at the time. But I signed it. Okay. I was rushing. 19 But after I got in the car, I noticed the clipboard she had 20 looked like it was padded or something. This was after I 21 left her. I wished I hadn't of signed it once I left. 22 But anyway, when John called me and told me -- 23 well, Mike called me Monday and told me I signed this 24 thing. I said, "No, Mike." I said, "I'm watching out for 25 these people. How could I sign that?" He said, "Your name
44 1 is on there." I said, "Okay." 2 And I value my voting rights, you know, because 3 I 4 know people died for me to be able to do this. You 5 understand? That's why I value it. And I could have had a 6 beautiful career in the military had it not been for 7 racism. That's why I got educated with racism and 8 prejudice. I wasn't the kind of person to take orders from 9 a person that didn't like me because of my color. I just 10 had a problem with that. 11 I was raised if a person lie, he don't have no 12 business doing it in the first place. That's the way I was 13 raised. I don't know how these other people was raised, 14 lying to folks and thinking it's okay. But if you listen 15 to the Free Press, the Free Press, they can tell their lies 16 and it's not illegal. I guess it ain't illegal. But why 17 would somebody orchestrate this just to lie? That means 18 it's not right in the first place if you've got to lie 19 about it. The truth is what I thought set you free, not to 20 lie. So I would like my name off of this. I'm very upset 21 about this. 22 Like I say, I know people died for me to be able 23 to vote. So it ain't no joke when I go to that poll. It 24 upsets me when people don't vote, especially black people 25 in this country that don't vote. That really hurts me to 26 my heart. They're spitting on the graves of their
45 1 ancestors. I guess that's about all. Thank you. 2 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Are there any 3 questions from the commission? I'd just like to ask a few 4 questions, Mr. Fears, of you if you don't mind. You 5 mentioned to me, to the commission, to the people here that 6 someone approached you and they said that to please sign 7 this petition to "keep affirmative action in" were I 8 believe the words that you used. What do you mean by that, 9 and what do you believe the circulator meant by that? 10 MR. FEARS: I didn't know what she meant. 11 That's 12 when I asked. I said, "Is this against what Ward Connerly 13 is doing." She said, "Yeah." 14 MR. BERNSTEIN: And she said "yes"? 15 MR. FEARS: Yes, it was against what he was 16 doing. All I know is Ward Connerly is a snake. Okay? 17 Whatever he for, I'm not for. When she told me it was 18 against what he was doing, I signed it. And I told other 19 people to watch for snakes, like I said. Watch what they 20 sign. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Bryant, also I want to just 22 clarify your statement. You said that somebody approached 23 you and they said that this is "for affirmative action." 24 MR. BRYANT: Right. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: When they said "this is for 26 affirmative action," what did you believe that to mean?
46 1 MR. BRYANT: This is for affirmative action. 2 Affirmative action like is for the -- you know, you want to 3 go to college or something like that. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: That it was preserving 5 affirmative action? 6 MR. BRYANT: Right. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: Or that it was just about 8 affirmative action? 9 MR. BRYANT: No. It was pre- -- 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: Preserving? Is that what you 11 mean? 12 MR. BRYANT: Yeah; affirmative action. It's 13 been 14 in the news -- all right -- that they want to kill 15 affirmative action for the college or something. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: And Mr. Jackson, you indicated 17 that you believed it to be related to a school millage; is 18 that correct? 19 MR. JACKSON: That's correct. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: And did the circulator -- the 21 circulator that approached you, did that person present it 22 to you as a school millage proposal? 23 MR. JACKSON: Yes, they did. It was on 6 Mile 24 and James Couzens at the Mobil gas station. I remember 25 signing something, but I never heard anything else about it 26 until last week when Mike Mulholland, Local 207 treasurer,
47 1 told me about it -- secretary, excuse me. 2 MR. BERNSTEIN: And what date was that; do you 3 recall? 4 MR. JACKSON: I know it was in the summer. It's 5 possible it may be like June, July, you know, summertime. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: And do you recall what time of 7 day? 8 MR. JACKSON: Not really. But I know, you know, 9 it was in the day. It wasn't dark. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: During the daytime? 11 MR. JACKSON: Right; yes. 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Mulholland, you indicated 13 during your testimony a minute ago also that a circulator 14 said -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but it's "for 15 affirmative action." And I just want to clarify that 16 phrase. When they said to you "it's for affirmative 17 action," did you take that to mean that it was about 18 affirmative action, or that it was in support of 19 affirmative action? 20 MR. MULHOLLAND: No. I took it, I think, in the 21 more commonsense. If it's for something, that it's in 22 favor of it. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Thank you. 24 MR. CALILLE: I just have one question for 25 everybody. Do you recall if the petition that you signed,
48 1 at least with regards to those that signed the petition, if 2 the ballot proposal was on the same piece of paper that you 3 were asked to sign? Do you recall that? 4 MR. RIEHL: Yup. 5 MR. CALILLE: It was? You do recall that? 6 MR. RIEHL: It was one piece or two pieces is 7 your question? 8 MR. CALILLE: Well, the piece I'm asking is 9 whether or not the petition that you were asked to sign 10 included a copy of the resolution or the proposed 11 amendment, the language of the proposal? Still confused? 12 MR. BRYANT: No, because I didn't read it. It 13 was covered with a white piece of paper. It had names 14 under it. Right? And then they approach you saying this 15 is for affirmative action. All right? "We're trying to 16 get petitions to keep affirmative action going. Would you 17 sign this petition?" All right? Of course, you're going 18 to be like, okay, let me sign this. You see other names 19 there. All right? But on the top of this paper, you know, 20 you see the fine print. I didn't -- me, I didn't bother to 21 read it. I was tired. I was just getting off of work. I 22 want to say, let me run down here to vote when I got off of 23 work. I'm tired and ready to go home. 24 MR. FEARS: I remember the lady that asked me to 25 sign it, and I tried to read it. But the clipboard looked
49 1 like it was padded. And it had like it was covered -- I 2 thought about this after I got in the car. But I asked 3 her, I said, "You ain't got this up there." And she told 4 me something like they didn't have enough room to put it up 5 there, to that effect. I said, "Okay." I'm believing the 6 lady. You know, I ain't saying I'm that naive, but I 7 believed it. If it's for affirmative action, I'm going to 8 sign it anyway. So that's -- when I got to the car, I 9 wished I hadn't have signed it for some reason. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: So on your particular petition, 11 on the clipboard -- was it a clipboard that was being used? 12 MR. FEARS: It was a clipboard. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: There was or there was not a 14 copy 15 of the proposal that was being -- for which you were being 16 asked for your signature? 17 MR. FEARS: They had a copy on the top, but you 18 couldn't -- there was some papers up under this copy, but 19 you couldn't lift it up. It was like it was taped down. 20 MR. BERNSTEIN: Did you ask to see the language? 21 MR. FEARS: They had a few words up there. She 22 said just wasn't no room for them all. That's what she 23 told me, and I was in a hurry going to work too. So I said 24 okay and I kept going. 25 MR. RIEHL: Can I wrap up? 26 MR. MULHOLLAND: With me, all I could see was
50 1 that it said the Civil Rights Initiative -- Michigan Civil 2 Rights Initiative, that he had that. And then I started 3 seeing red, and I said something unkind to him and I left. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. 5 MR. ABDRABBOH: I have a question. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes; go ahead. 7 MR. ABDRABBOH: I had a question for you 8 gentlemen. About from the time of the incident up until 9 your testimony today, have any of you filed any complaints, 10 written to MCRI, called, and have you gotten any responses 11 if you've done so? 12 MR. RIEHL: I don't believe anybody has because 13 we just started bringing people's attention to it starting 14 on Thursday out of our Local; Thursday, Friday, and Monday 15 particularly. 16 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Now I understand that you 17 have affidavits; correct? 18 MR. RIEHL: Yes. We'll turn in a stack of 27. 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: If you don't mind, I'd like to 20 enter those as exhibits? If you could hand those to me? 21 MR. RIEHL: There's another copy. Sure. 22 (Exhibit 1 marked) 23 MR. RIEHL: And to thank the commission for your 24 good work. I do think this hearing is valuable. The truth 25 is going to come out. More hearings around the state,
51 1 particularly I understand a lot could be learned from 2 having a hearing in Flint. And we could get more 3 information from more of our members also because we are 4 able to do that because we're an electronic database. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Thank you very much. 6 The next witness will be Emily Kunze. Is she present? 7 Thank you, Emily. 8 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 9 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 10 MS. KUNZE: Yes, I do. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. And if I could just 12 remind 13 you, we have a number of -- a very full room here with a 14 number of people who have been here for a long time. I 15 think everybody is doing a better job sitting still than I 16 think I am. But again, I want to remind everybody to 17 please remain quiet during these proceedings. It's 18 difficult to hear. This is a large room. And we greatly 19 appreciate it. So if we could please have order in this 20 room. Again, over here on my left. Excuse me. Thank you. 21 All right. Please proceed. 22 EMILY KUNZE 23 having been called and sworn. 24 MS. KUNZE: Hello. My name is Emily Kunze. I'm 25 president of AFSCME Local 2920. I've been president since 26 2002, and I'm serving my second term. I represent clerical
52 1 workers at the City of Detroit's water, public lighting, 2 and human resources department. My membership is 3 predominantly black women residing in the City of Detroit. 4 I was elected and re-elected because of the firm stance 5 I've taken around our union issues but also because I am 6 prepared to fight against the racist segregation and second 7 class treatment that black people suffer in the City of 8 Detroit. I've committed to my members, and I will fight 9 and organize against the racist discrimination and 10 oppression they suffer every single day. 11 Our local has been involved in the fight to 12 defend affirmative action for many years. When affirmative 13 action came under attack in the 1990's by the lawsuits 14 filed against the University of Michigan, our local made 15 the fight to defend affirmative action a top priority. We 16 have had countless discussions in our membership meetings 17 about the need to defend affirmative action. We've 18 distributed educational literature to our members, had 19 speakers attend our meetings, and we've supported efforts 20 and events to support and defend affirmative action. 21 Our union send members in buses to the march 22 on -- 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Ms. Kunze, I don't mean to 24 interrupt you, but if you could please restrict -- 25 MS. KUNZE: I'm getting to it.
53 1 MR. BERNSTEIN: -- your testimony to issues 2 related to circulator activity. Thank you. 3 MS. KUNZE: I'm getting to it. 4 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. 5 MS. KUNZE: We sent our members on buses to 6 Washington D.C. April 1st, 2003, to protest in favor of 7 affirmative action, in defense of it when it was in front 8 of the Supreme Court. My members have given money and time 9 to defend affirmative action. We do not want to go back to 10 a system that further oppresses black, Latinos, and other 11 minorities and all women. We don't want to see our 12 children barred from opportunities for higher eduction or 13 decent jobs and promotions. 14 Last week, I compared my membership list to the 15 60 percent of the MCRI petition signatures afforded to 16 BAMN. I found that seven percent of my membership had 17 signed that petition. If I was afforded the other 40 18 percent of the petition signatures, I'm sure that number 19 would proportionately increase to about 12 percent. Every 20 last member that signed that petition was black and almost 21 all women. Every member I approached to see if they 22 intended to sign the petition denied signing a petition to 23 upend affirmative action. And I have affidavits here also 24 that I want to present. 25 Every member I approached signed the affidavit.
54 1 Members were confused and angry that their names were on a 2 petition that wanted to ban affirmative action. I had a 3 chief steward, an officer, an executive board member, a 4 leader in our union that is very abreast of the racist 5 nature of the petition, conned into signing the petition. 6 I had a member that signed the petition stating that she 7 couldn't believe she had signed it because she's very aware 8 of the attacks of affirmative action and spoke about that 9 she's been following affirmative action since the 10 California Bakke Ruling in 1978. After talking to my 11 members, it became absolutely clear to me that the MCRI 12 conducted a conscious, concerted campaign to misrepresent 13 the contents, purpose, and effect of the measure they 14 propose to put on the 2006 ballot. 15 In 2004, your commission had its 40th 16 anniversary 17 and put out a booklet describing your history. And you 18 talked about how progressive Michigan was. For instance, 19 in 1867, Michigan passed legislation prohibiting racial 20 segregation in education. In 1885, Michigan passed 21 legislation barring discrimination in public 22 accommodations. And in 1890, the Michigan Supreme Court 23 rejected the notion of separate but equal. 24 You play a really important responsibility in 25 creating and maintaining equal opportunity and treatment. 26 You also play a role in preventing hate crimes and curbing
55 1 racial tensions. If this proposal gets on the ballot only 2 because the petition signatures were obtained through 3 vicious lies and no one does anything about it and then it 4 passes in Michigan, a state that's overwhelmingly white, 5 the social effects will be devastating. We already know 6 that there will be a decline in minority enrollment in 7 learning institutions, the gender and race gap will 8 increase in the work force, and segregation will deepen in 9 Michigan. We will also experience an increase in racist 10 and sexist violence in our state. 11 You can be sure the message sent from Lansing 12 will be that our government had a chance to investigate the 13 fraud and stop this travesty of justice but refused to. 14 Black and other minority citizens will be assured that our 15 government doesn't care about their rights at all. There 16 will be a clear understanding that our government will do 17 nothing to stop racism and sexism in our state. It will 18 become crystal clear that a black person has no right to a 19 fair and equitable election system. 20 And you can be sure there will be a massive 21 reaction from the black community in this state, 22 particularly in Detroit. There will be fight back as black 23 people fight to defend the gains they've won over the last 24 50 years. There will be an organized resistence. The 25 black community of Detroit will be heard. We have never
56 1 sat back. We know how to fight back. We won't, we can't 2 endure further segregation, poverty, unemployment, crime, 3 and hunger. We won't let our kids be denied the 4 opportunity to be educated, succeed, and contribute to our 5 society. 6 Another thing that I read from your booklet that 7 you put out in 2004 was, quote, "The commission has over 8 the years had a profound effect on shaping civil rights 9 policy in Michigan including many court decisions that 10 began with the commission's ruling," end quote. Today the 11 commission has a historic responsibility to the citizens of 12 Michigan. You have a duty to investigate the fraud 13 committed upon thousands of voters who sign this racist 14 petition. The commission must call upon the Michigan 15 Supreme Court to get a stay to keep this proposal off the 16 ballot until you have a full opportunity to investigate the 17 voter fraud perpetuated by MCRI in their attempts to 18 further segregate the State of Michigan and further 19 subjugate the black citizens particularly in the City of 20 Detroit, the most segregated city in the United States. If 21 you don't stand up for the integrity of our system now, 22 there will be no need for your commission at all. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Ms. Kunze, you 24 indicated that you had affidavits; is that correct? 25 MS. KUNZE: Yes, I have affidavits from the
57 1 members I was able to approach in the last week. And I 2 also have a flyer that we sent around to our membership 3 back in November 2003 trying to educate people. So I just 4 wanted to give you an example of what we've been trying to 5 do in our local to let people know. And people were still 6 defrauded. 7 MR. BERNSTEIN: I have some questions for you. 8 And I would like to enter these affidavits into the record. 9 And not the flyer, but I would like to see that. 10 MS. KUNZE: Sure. 11 MR. BERNSTEIN: Question. The affidavits that 12 you have that you plan to provide to us, do any of them 13 discuss the comment of a circulator? Do any of them 14 discuss the conduct of a circulator? In other words, do 15 they touch on whether or not the statements made by a 16 circulator, whether or not this was presented as something 17 that was supportive of affirmative action or that was 18 attempting to ban affirmative action? 19 MS. KUNZE: No. The affidavits are basically 20 saying that they never signed a petition to ban affirmative 21 action, and they want their names removed. Most of the 22 people I talked to did not remember signing any petition 23 and were absolutely appalled that their name was on the 24 list and would never sign it. And so all I could assume is 25 if their name was on the list, if their signature is there,
58 1 that they were told that this was a civil rights measure to 2 support. And they took it as a pro -- a civil rights 3 initiative in the historic sense that's, you know, 4 progressive to black people, women, and other minorities. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Any questions from 6 the commission? 7 MR. SCOTT: Did you only see a list of names, or 8 did you see actual signatures? 9 MS. KUNZE: No. I saw a list of names. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. If you 11 could hand me the affidavits, we'll enter those. 12 (Exhibit 2 marked) 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Next person on the witness list 14 is the Honorable Archie Hayman. Is he present? Judge 15 Hayman? Is he present? I'm sorry. Okay. We're going to 16 move along then to Martha Cuneo. Is she present? Okay. 17 AUDIENCE: (Inaudible) 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Well, let's begin with 19 Martha Cuneo. If she's present, I'd like to call her as a 20 witness, please. Is she available? Is she here? Okay. 21 Then we're going to move on then -- 22 MS. CUNEO: I'm here. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Great. If Judge Hayman 24 is 25 here, we'd like to call you as the next witness, but you'll 26 go after Ms. Cuneo. Thank you.
59 1 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 2 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 3 MS. CUNEO: I do. 4 MARTHA CUNEO 5 having been called and sworn: 6 MS. CUNEO: Good evening. I have my 7 granddaughter with me. I have three grandchildren. I want 8 a level playing field for all the grandchildren; all of 9 them. My name is Martha Cuneo. I reside at 29340 Bon Mar 10 Drive in Warren. I'm a board member of the National Lawyer 11 Guild of Detroit. 12 And in the fall of 2004, my husband and I were 13 approached by a young lady, a young black woman, in Royal 14 Oak at the foot of the steps of the main post office. I 15 said, "What have you got there?" She had petitions. There 16 are lots of petitions in Royal Oak at the post office. She 17 said, "This is for affirmative action." I said, "Does it 18 have to do with the Ann Arbor case?" She said, "Yes, it 19 does." I said, "Are you in support?" She said, "Yes." I 20 said, "Fine." My husband was nearby. I said, "C'mon, we 21 should sign this," and he did. My husband and I have been 22 active in Civil Rights since -- 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: Excuse me. I don't mean to 24 interrupt you. If you cannot remain quiet during these 25 proceedings, you will be asked to leave. Thank you.
60 1 Proceed. 2 MS. CUNEO: -- for a very long time. He longer 3 than I. Neither of us would ever, ever have signed a 4 petition that was the kind of thing that this thing turned 5 out to be. And when I realized what I had done, I was 6 pretty mad at myself. I'm mad at the people who committed 7 this, what amounts to fraud on me. I resent it enormously. 8 I feel like the right to petition of a citizen has been 9 perverted. I simply can't understand, really, why anybody 10 would do that. I was never informed that the petition's 11 aim was to limit or end affirmative action. I saw the 12 circulator approaching other people and saying similar 13 things to them before we were able to, both of us, get 14 away. 15 I want my name off this petition. I don't know 16 whether you have the power to do that or not. But if you 17 do, I implore you to take my name off this petition. It's 18 profoundly embarrassing to me. I can't understand how so 19 many people could have signed this petition in error 20 without some kind of encouragement such as I was given. 21 I understand that the only recourse in the state 22 for people who want to maintain the rights that are being 23 talked about here today is this body. You're the only 24 ones. You're the ones that can investigate. There's 25 something wrong with this. I can't imagine why you
61 1 wouldn't want very much to investigate this, and I implore 2 you to do so. Thank you. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. I have a few 4 questions, Ms. Cuneo. 5 MS. CUNEO: Oh, sure. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Again, I just want to clarify 7 your statement regarding the circulator's presentation to 8 you. 9 MS. CUNEO: Yes. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: If you could just -- you stated 11 to me -- or you stated to the commission you asked the 12 circulator, "Does it have to do with the Ann Arbor case"; 13 correct? 14 MS. CUNEO: Yes, I did. 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: And the circulator's response 16 was 17 in the affirmative? 18 MS. CUNEO: It was in the affirmative. I said, 19 "This thing is in support," or something to the effect of 20 "This is in support of affirmative action?" She said, "Oh, 21 yes." She was a very attractive lady in her 30's, 22 African-American, very credible lady. 23 MR. BERNSTEIN: In your affidavit that you 24 submitted, includes the date and time? 25 MS. CUNEO: It was fall 2004. It was a 26 beautiful
63 1 I don't know what day it was. 2 MR. BERNSTEIN: This was the Royal Oak Post 3 Office, is that what you said? 4 MS. CUNEO: Yeah; yeah. 5 MR. BERNSTEIN: Are there any other questions 6 for 7 Ms. Cuneo? Thank you very much. 8 MS. CUNEO: Thank you. 9 MR. BERNSTEIN: The next witness that I'd like 10 to 11 call will be Ms. Shanta Driver, who also I believe has some 12 affidavits to present. So, please, if you could remain 13 standing while you take -- 14 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 15 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 16 MS. DRIVER: Yes, I do. 17 SHANTA DRIVER 18 having been called and sworn: 19 MS. DRIVER: Thank you. What I'd like to do is 20 just begin by describing a little bit about the process of 21 this investigation because I think it might help to clarify 22 the various ways that people were -- have been sought out 23 around the question of the voter fraud. 24 MR. BERNSTEIN: And if I may just remind you to 25 please limit your remarks to the conduct of circulators. 26 MS. DRIVER: It is on that.
65 1 MS. DRIVER: It's the -- I'm one of the national 2 spokespersons for BAMN. We became aware -- we heard all 3 through the circulation of the MCRI petition -- and I had 4 three instances where I was approached myself by petition 5 circulators, including at the Detroit Medical Center where 6 I work, where the circulator was very confused about what 7 it was they were circulating. And in every instance where 8 I was approached, each of the circulator said, "This is a 9 petition to defend affirmative action. This is a petition 10 to increase educational opportunity for minority students 11 across the state." And I did not sign it each and every 12 time because I'd been involved in the Grutter Case and I 13 understood the nature of things. And I kind of felt at the 14 time that I was being approached that perhaps my experience 15 was not the experience that was generalized in Detroit. 16 We began investigating the circulation and why 17 it 18 was that people signed this petition when the State Board 19 of Canvassers selected a random sample of 500 signatures to 20 determine whether or not this measure should go on the 21 ballot. When we got those 500 signatures, we did have -- 22 and I know that this was a question that Mr. Scott has 23 had -- the actual original petitions that people had 24 signed; copies of them. We went door to door in Detroit, 25 first and foremost, to see if the experience of people who 26 had signed it had been like my experience and like so many
66 1 other people that we had heard about. And we found in our 2 investigation of that 500 person sample that there was not 3 a single person in Detroit that we located that had 4 knowingly signed a petition opposed to affirmative action. 5 Now, I just want to say this: If you see the 6 language of the petition, nowhere on it did it mention the 7 term "affirmative action." In fact, the language was 8 purposely conceived of to deceive people. If you look at 9 the language of the petition that people were signing, it 10 says -- it makes it sound exactly like the protections 11 provided by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and by the civil 12 rights protection in the Michigan State Constitution except 13 that it has the words in it "or preferential or giving 14 preferential treatment," something like that. And to many 15 people, including a number of the circulators that I 16 encountered, they thought preferential treatment meant that 17 you had more money, that you were more able to go to 18 college, that this was going to level the playing field in 19 some way. And it's just to say that term is a loaded term 20 and it's a legal term of art. It's not a laymen's term 21 that anyone who read the petition would understand meant 22 the banning of affirmative action. 23 That's why I think so many people signed the 24 petition. If they read the language, they wouldn't have 25 known it meant a ban on affirmative action. If they asked
67 1 the petition circulator what was the meaning of the words, 2 the petition circulator said, as they did to me time and 3 time again -- and I have over 140 affidavits to give you, 4 some of which describe in very great detail the individual 5 experience of people being lied to. But they would have 6 been told as I was told, this is pro-affirmative action. 7 The problem that we're facing is really twofold. 8 First, when we went to the State Board of Canvassers and we 9 said, "You have to do a full scale investigation of this," 10 we were told by the Attorney General and by the State Board 11 of Canvassers and then by an appeals court that the State 12 Board of Canvassers lacked the authority to investigate the 13 fraud in this process. We know that by -- as Linda Parker 14 said, by constitutional decree, you have the power and the 15 duty to investigate these allegations. I would say to you 16 that there are three different types of fraud and three 17 different reasons, three different kinds of investigations 18 that really meld into one that we would ask you to 19 investigate. 20 First, twice as many black people signed these 21 petitions as white people. And I have a document that will 22 make that clear from what we've been able to do with the 23 sample that we received. 24 MR. WILLIAMS: Please note the time. You have 25 one minute remaining.
68 1 MS. DRIVER: Okay. That there were 24 percent 2 black signers of this petition, and only 12 percent of the 3 population of Michigan is black means that there was 4 racially targeted fraud in the gathering of these. Black 5 petition gatherers were hired in the City of Detroit and 6 other majority black areas to lie to people to get them to 7 sign it. 8 Second thing, as you heard from Ms. Cuneo and 9 many of the other affidavits that I have support what she 10 says. You'll see that in suburban areas people were lied 11 to also by many of those same black circulators that were 12 shipped out to the suburbs to tell the lie that this was 13 for affirmative action, not against it. So there was 14 widespread voter fraud. To us -- 15 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you have affidavits that you 16 wish to submit to the commission? 17 MS. DRIVER: I do. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. If I could ask you to 19 conclude those remarks and present the affidavits to the 20 commission? How many affidavits do you have? 21 MS. DRIVER: I have about 140. 22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. So if you could just hand 23 those affidavits to me, we'll enter them into the record. 24 We'll give them to the court reporter. 25 MS. DRIVER: And I would just say this: We
69 1 really appreciate this commission having this hearing. 2 It's a huge step forward. It's the first time -- it's the 3 first time that it's been possible to get the truth out. 4 But unlike the State Board of Canvassers, you really have 5 the authority to stop this fraud from going forward and to 6 protect the voting rights of the people of Michigan. And 7 we ask that you ask the Supreme Court to enter a stay so 8 that that investigation can take place before this is 9 placed on the ballot and not afterwards. Thank you. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Thank you. 11 (Exhibit 3 marked) 12 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you very much. Okay. 13 We're going to next call Ms. Felicia Skinner-Parker. Is 14 she here? Ms. Parker, please? Thank you. 15 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 16 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 17 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: Yes, I do. 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: Now, Ms. Parker, do you have a 19 statement that you'd like to make? 20 FELICIA SKINNER-PARKER 21 having been called and sworn: 22 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: Yes. I'm here for not just 23 myself. My husband and I went to a store called Kessel in 24 Flint, Michigan, on Corunna Road some time ago, about 2004. 25 And I'm going to let my husband tell the story because he's
70 1 the one that signed. But they did approach me and asked me 2 to sign. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Is your husband here right now? 4 Oh, well, please, why don't you could join us? And if you 5 could state your name also, and if you could be sworn in as 6 well. 7 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 8 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 9 MR. PARKER: Yes, I do. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: If you could please state your 11 name, sir? 12 MR. PARKER: My name is David Parker. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: David, thank you. Proceed, 14 please. 15 DAVID PARKER 16 having been called and sworn: 17 MR. PARKER: Okay. Around the summer of -- 18 MR. BERNSTEIN: I'm sorry. If you could move 19 the 20 microphone a little bit closer? Thank you. 21 MR. PARKER: Okay. Around the summer of 2004, 22 like my wife said, we were up at Kessel's. She went out to 23 get a cart. A man approached me with a -- what do you call 24 those? -- forms to sign up for civil rights. They said, 25 "Would you like to sign a form to" -- 26 MR. BERNSTEIN: Again, if you could please speak
71 1 into the microphone? I'm sorry. 2 MR. PARKER: I'm sorry. I just speak soft. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: All right. Okay. 4 MR. PARKER: He approached me with a form saying 5 that it's for civil rights for your kids to go to school. 6 Well, thinking of my back then 2-month-old daughter, I 7 said, "Well, I would like to have an equal chance." And he 8 assured me, well, if this bill passes that your daughter 9 will have a chance to go to college. So I signed it. 10 Shortly after my wife came out there, and he 11 approached her. And my wife didn't sign, but she was 12 asking him -- she had questions. But in all the questions 13 that my wife was asking, he was answering. But the more 14 she asked, the more kind of aggressive or upset he got to 15 the point where you could see his knuckles turn white 16 holding the clipboard. And my wife told me, "You didn't 17 sign that, did you?" I said, "Yes, I did." She said, "We 18 need to talk about it." So she told me how they changed 19 two little words to basically -- what it would do if it 20 passes would abolish civil rights -- or I'm sorry -- 21 affirmative action. And ever since there, I kind of 22 regretted the decision I made. So I'm just asking the 23 commission, if you would, please, take my name off the 24 list. It's something I can't support. 25 MR. BERNSTEIN: Let me just clarify that. This
72 1 commission has no authority to remove, add, or remove names 2 from a petition list. This is clearly and solely an 3 exercise in listening to concerns from citizens about this. 4 But I appreciate your comments. And I didn't want to 5 interrupt you. I just wanted to clarify that. But a 6 number of individuals have made that comment. And this is 7 not the appropriate agency to do that, nor the appropriate 8 forum. However, this is the appropriate place to voice 9 your concerns about this issue. So I appreciate you being 10 here about that. I didn't mean to interrupt you about 11 that. But do you have anything else that you'd like to -- 12 MR. PARKER: No, that's it, Mr. Bernstein. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: Do you have anything? Ms. 14 Parker, go ahead. 15 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: The same man had approached 16 me. And by training in profession, I'm an interpreter for 17 the deaf, which is another group that have benefitted from 18 affirmative action because some of the things they have now 19 they couldn't have got it without affirmative action. So I 20 had recently interpreted a TV show, and they were talking 21 about the U of M, Ann Arbor case. And I remember some 22 things but not all. So when I was approached with the 23 clipboard and the man -- he was a tall Caucasian man with 24 dark hair -- I asked him a few questions like, "Does this 25 have to do with the case in Ann Arbor," and "Is this about
73 1 affirmative action" because I remember them saying that 2 things were being flipped so that it would not assist 3 anybody who's a minority, but it would hurt them. So when 4 I asked him -- and the more I asked him questions, the more 5 upset he got. So I declined to sign the petition at that 6 time. 7 About a week or so ago, I interpreted Kwanzaa, 8 which is where I heard about various other things about the 9 list of names of people. And after Kwanzaa, I did see part 10 of the list and I just wanted to make sure that nobody from 11 my family would sign it because we have an 8-month-old 12 daughter. I want to make sure she has full access to 13 everything. And I found my mother's name. And if you 14 like, I could have her call and have her verify. She told 15 me to come and tell you her story. 16 She had went to the grocery store, and she was 17 approached by someone with a clipboard asking her to please 18 sign this petition because it would help affirmative 19 action. It would make sure that her children and 20 grandchildren went to college. So my mother, she signed it 21 because she was up from the south. She was born and raised 22 in the south but came north. She knows about 23 discrimination. 24 So when I called her -- I found her name on the 25 list. I called her. I said, "Mom, I found your name on
74 1 this list." She said, "What list?" I said, "You signed to 2 help destroy affirmative action." She said, "No, I didn't. 3 I wouldn't sign anything like that." I'm like, "Mom, yes 4 you did. I just saw your name." She said, "No way." I 5 said, "Did you go to a grocery store on 7 mile?" She said, 6 "Yeah, but that was about a summer ago," yadda-yadda. I 7 said, "Well, Mom, that was the person. That person -- when 8 they told you it was for affirmative action, that was the 9 person trying to destroy affirmative action. You signed 10 it. I just saw your name, address, phone number, 11 everything." 12 She said, "Well, I don't want my name on that 13 list. You got to do something." So my mother asked me to 14 let you know if she could change anything for sure, she 15 would not have signed that petition. She did not want her 16 name on that list. She wants us to have full access to 17 everything as well as her granddaughter. 18 MS. VAN HOUTEN: Mr. Chairman? 19 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. 20 MS. VAN HOUTEN: Do you know the approximate 21 date 22 when your mother was approached? And also what's your 23 mother's name? 24 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: My mother's name is Evelyn 25 Mary Skinner. 26 MS. VAN HOUTEN: Evelyn?
75 1 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: Evelyn, E-v-e-l-y-n, M she 2 puts, she doesn't like the Mary, Skinner, S-k-i-n-n-e-r. 3 And I don't remember if she told me the specific day, but 4 she did say it was at the grocery store and she ran in to 5 get some things and come out. 6 MS. VAN HOUTEN: A month, a year, anything? 7 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: About last summer sometime. 8 MR. BERNSTEIN: Now, in your affidavit you 9 indicated that you were asked to sign a petition in support 10 of affirmative action; that is correct? 11 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: He asked me to sign it. I 12 declined because I knew the case. 13 MR. BERNSTEIN: And the circulator, the person 14 asking you to sign the petition, that individual said that 15 it was in support of affirmative action? 16 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: It was for affirmative 17 action to, you know, make sure everything was okay. And 18 then when I asked him about the case, he said, "Yeah, it is 19 about the case." And the more I asked him, the more he 20 clutched that clipboard. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: And I know I've asked this of a 22 number of people, but I think the wording is important. 23 When he said "for affirmative action," did you take that to 24 mean in support of affirmative or that it was about 25 affirmative action?
76 1 MS. SKINNER-PARKER: Not to obliterate 2 affirmative action. 3 MR. BERNSTEIN: Okay. Thank you. 4 MS. PARKER: Mr. Parker, sir, excuse me. Could 5 you please repeat your name for the record? The court 6 reporter did not hear it the first time. 7 MR. PARKER: Oh, I'm sorry. It's David Parker. 8 REPORTER: David? 9 MR. PARKER: Correct. 10 MR. BERNSTEIN: Any other questions from the 11 commission? Thank you very much. Mr. Wayne Bernard, is he 12 present? 13 MR. BERNARD: Right here. 14 MR. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Bernard, would you like to - 15 - 16 and after that we will call Mr. Sammy Williams, if he's 17 present if he could just be ready to come up next. 18 REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that 19 the testimony you're about to give will be the whole truth? 20 MR. BERNARD: Yes, it is the truth. 21 MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Bernard. Yes, 22 it's the microphone again to your left; yeah. Thank you. 23 And again, I'd ask you to limit your comments specifically 24 to conduct of circulators. Okay. And again, I want to 25 remind everybody to please remain quiet during these 26 proceedings. It's difficult to hear. There's a lot of
77 1 people speaking. Thank you. Go ahead. 2 WAYNE BERNARD 3 having been called and sworn: 4 MR. BERNARD: Good evening. My name is Wayne 5 Bernard. Bernard is spelled B-e-r-n-a-r-d. 6 MR. BERNSTEIN: Go ahead, Mr. Bernard. 7 MR. BERNARD: I was approached with the 8 petition. 9 But the petition I was approached with was about race 10 discrimination, not affirmative action, race 11 discrimination. And the person that approached me was a | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
